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Hebrew University
A letter by AMIRAM GOLDBLUM (School of Pharmacy), demanding that people whose views he dislikes be denied basic civil rights

http://www.ee.bgu.ac.il/~academia/2003_directory/2003_12_directory/2003_12_04.txt

-------------->Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 01:48:40 +0200
From: Amiram Goldblum <amiram@VMS.HUJI.AC.IL>
Subject: Re: Civil rights violation
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=======> "Academia", Communication tool of the past present and future
=======> An unedited free subscription list
=======> Copied to http://www.ee.bgu.ac.il/~academia
=======> Caveat lector
Dear Ben Zedef,
You really think that this strategy will work: attack instead of
respond to the accusation that, in your political camp, you
consider any Kippa wearer to be a saint even though he is a hoodlum.
At 22:16 03/12/2003, Eviathar H. Ben-Zedeff wrote:
>dear amiram,
>
>... how come that your heart is bleeding only for the suffering of arabs ...
>
>eviathar
>
>
>
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--Boundary_(ID_4OUoRTsHbH3KRjQWBwz29w)
-------------->Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 01:54:33 +0200
From: Amiram Goldblum <amiram@VMS.HUJI.AC.IL>
Subject: Re: Civil rights violation
Unauthorized Encoding
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
=======> "Academia", Communication tool of the past present and future
=======> An unedited free subscription list
=======> Copied to http://www.ee.bgu.ac.il/~academia
=======> Caveat lector
Protecting the civil rights of Noam Federman is like protecting
the rights of the murderers in Stanley Kubrik's Clockwork Orange.
At 12:55 03/12/2003, Shaul Krakover wrote:
>Please read the following (in Hebrew) to comprehend the extent of civil
>rights violations:
><http://www.nfc.co.il/archive/003-D-4174-00.html?tag=12-50-39>http://www.nfc.co.il/archive/003-D-4174-00.html?tag=12-50-39
>
>
>
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--Boundary_(ID_hGd6NxjhE9bUwLqdbEYq2w)
-------------->Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 07:29:58 +0200
From: "dan censor (dani)" <censor@EE.BGU.AC.IL>
Subject: Re: Civil rights violation
Unauthorized Encoding
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=======> "Academia", Communication tool of the past present and future
=======> An unedited free subscription list
=======> Copied to http://www.ee.bgu.ac.il/~academia
=======> Caveat lector
again, very academic! can we dispense with such remarks?
Eviathar H. Ben-Zedeff wrote:
>
> dear amiram,
>
> ... how come that your heart is bleeding only for the suffering of
> arabs ...
>
> eviathar
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--------------080902050701050208070801
-------------->Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 07:31:43 +0200
From: "dan censor (dani)" <censor@EE.BGU.AC.IL>
Subject: Re: Civil rights violation
Unauthorized Encoding
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=======> "Academia", Communication tool of the past present and future
=======> An unedited free subscription list
=======> Copied to http://www.ee.bgu.ac.il/~academia
=======> Caveat lector
amiramG, kindly stop this trash, you and benzedefE
dani
...
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--------------070602070800050609090000
-------------->Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 07:32:53 +0200
From: "dan censor (dani)" <censor@EE.BGU.AC.IL>
Subject: Re: Civil rights violation
Unauthorized Encoding
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
=======> "Academia", Communication tool of the past present and future
=======> An unedited free subscription list
=======> Copied to http://www.ee.bgu.ac.il/~academia
=======> Caveat lector
and this trash too, before i have to intervene.
Amiram Goldblum wrote:
>
> Protecting the civil rights of Noam Federman is like protecting
> the rights of the murderers in Stanley Kubrik's Clockwork Orange.
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--------------000700060906020502070403
-------------->Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 07:53:05 +0200
From: Amiram Goldblum <amiram@VMS.HUJI.AC.IL>
Subject: Re: Civil rights violation
=======> "Academia", Communication tool of the past present and future
=======> An unedited free subscription list
=======> Copied to http://www.ee.bgu.ac.il/~academia
=======> Caveat lector
DaniC:
I suggest that you do not try to characterize my postings,
unless you wish to demonstrate your dominant position to this list:
I could easily give names to some of your postings, and refrain
from doing it...Please quote and show what exactly made you
loose your temper.
Amiram
At 07:31 04/12/03 +0200, dan censor (dani) wrote:
>amiramG, kindly stop this trash, you and benzedefE
>dani
>...
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--=====================_158745383==_.ALT
-------------->Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 08:05:28 +0200
From: Shaul Krakover <shaul@BGUMAIL.BGU.AC.IL>
Subject: Civil rights
 charset="windows-1255"
Unauthorized Encoding
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=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> "Academia", Communication tool of the past present and future
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> An unedited free subscription list
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> Copied to http://www.ee.bgu.ac.il/~academia
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> Caveat lector
Yonathan,
It appears that sometimes this is a necessary evil, regardless of faith =
and nationality, especially in our complex situation. The question is =
under what terms and conditions?
Shaul
 Yonathan wrote:
 Isn't it amazing how laws designed to control Arabs can be used =
against
 Jews?
 And isn't it amazing how some people are completely blind to the =
denial
 of "other's" rights in a democratic society, but get very agitated =
when
 these same laws are used against Jews
 Tut-tut, wonders never cease!
 Shaul, put your money where your mouth is, and join us in calling for =
an
 end to ALL arrests without trial.
 Yonathan
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Professor Shaul Krakover, Chairperson
Department of Geography and Environmental Development =
http://www.geog.bgu.ac.il
Ben-Gurion University of the Negev,=20
Beer-Sheva 84105, Israel =
 http://www.bgu.ac.il
Phone: 972-8-6472003, Fax: 972-8-6472821. =
http://profiler.bgu.ac.il
e-mail: shaul@bgumail.bgu.ac.il =20
 * Associate Editor, Tourism Geographies Journal =
http://www.geog.nau.edu/tg
 * Past President, Association of Israeli Geographers =
http://www.geography.org.il
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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-------------->Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 08:07:09 +0200
From: Shaul Krakover <shaul@BGUMAIL.BGU.AC.IL>
Subject: Civil rights
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Unauthorized Encoding
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> "Academia", Communication tool of the past present and future
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> An unedited free subscription list
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> Copied to http://www.ee.bgu.ac.il/~academia
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> Caveat lector
Amiram,
I am sensitive to all human suffering, may be a bit more when he is my =
brother.
Shaul
 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> "Academia", Communication tool of the past =
present and future
 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> An unedited free subscription list
 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> Copied to http://www.ee.bgu.ac.il/~academia
 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> Caveat lector
 Dear Shaul,
 My heart is really broken and my eyes weep when I read the stories of =
Haetzni
 (a well known objective observer.....) about the wonders of Federman.
 Just a little more than a decade ago, while I was running after =
stone-throwers
 in Gaza during the first intifada, the feeble and weak Federman =
attacked
 my family in Jerusalem on a daily basis, organized threats to kill my =
daughter,
 and demolished my car ----- and was sent to jail for that and for
 attacks on Dan Meridor's home, Teddy Kolek's, and the Baptist
 Church ----- for only 6 months. The amount of suffering that this
 hoodlum inflicted on others should have already put him in jail
 for a lifetime.=20
 I also wonder how come that you are so sensitive to human suffering =
only
 when settlers are involved.
 Amiram
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-------------->Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 08:26:02 +0200
From: Shaul Krakover <shaul@BGUMAIL.BGU.AC.IL>
Subject: Civil rights
 charset="windows-1255"
Unauthorized Encoding
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=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> "Academia", Communication tool of the past present and future
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=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> Caveat lector
Dani,
Unlike you I believe it is important to debate the question of =
cosmopolitanism versus Jewish (or any nation's) self identity. Should we =
be engaged primarily in the suffering of all people in the world, =
including those who inflict suffering upon themselves or could we allow =
just a bit of priority to our own people suffering?=20
Shaul Krakover
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-------------->Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 09:08:09 +0200
From: "Yonathan (Jon) Anson" <anson@BGUMAIL.BGU.AC.IL>
Subject: Re: Civil rights
To: academia@LISTSERV.AC.IL
Precedence: list
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at technion.ac.il
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at technion.ac.il
=======> "Academia", Communication tool of the past present and future
=======> An unedited free subscription list
=======> Copied to http://www.ee.bgu.ac.il/~academia
=======> Caveat lector
If there are "terms and conditions" then Federman certainly appears a
prime candidate! This is your brother? My condolences!
Shaul Krakover wrote:
>
> Yonathan,
> It appears that sometimes this is a necessary evil, regardless of
> faith and nationality, especially in our complex situation. The
> question is under what terms and conditions?
> Shaul
>
--
Yonathan (Jon) Anson
Department of Social Work
Ben Gurion University of the Negev
84105 Be'er Sheva, Israel.
Tel: +972 8 647 93 14 (w) +972 8 648 92 86 (h) +972 67 23 32 79 (m)
Fax: +972 8 647 29 33
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-------------->Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 09:45:56 +0200
From: "dan censor (dani)" <censor@EE.BGU.AC.IL>
Subject: decorum on the list
Unauthorized Encoding
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
=======> "Academia", Communication tool of the past present and future
=======> An unedited free subscription list
=======> Copied to http://www.ee.bgu.ac.il/~academia
=======> Caveat lector
amiramG, you have difficulties in understanding what is a civilized
debate and what is flaming.
so you do not have to understand why, just avoid this style.
dani
...
Amiram Goldblum wrote:
>
> Protecting the civil rights of Noam Federman is like protecting
> the rights of the murderers in Stanley Kubrik's Clockwork Orange.
again, very academic! can we dispense with such remarks?
Eviathar H. Ben-Zedeff wrote:
>
> dear amiram,
>
> ... how come that your heart is bleeding only for the suffering of
> arabs ...
>
> eviathar
=======> Help/Info: http://www.ee.bgu.ac.il/~academia/Academia_List.txt
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--------------040003010203050904000301
-------------->Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 09:59:33 +0200
From: Alon Harel <msalon@MSCC.HUJI.AC.IL>
Subject: Re: decorum on the list
 charset="iso-8859-1"
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=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> "Academia", Communication tool of the past present and future
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=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> Caveat lector
I shall add that the civil rights of the murderers in Stanley Kubrik's =
Clockwork Orange ought to be protected precisely as the civil rights of =
any other person. Both scholar Federman as well as his friends and =
admirers in the Stanley Kubrik movie are entitled to them.=20
 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> "Academia", Communication tool of the past =
present and future
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 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> Caveat lector
 amiramG, you have difficulties in understanding what is a civilized =
debate and what is flaming.
 so you do not have to understand why, just avoid this style.=20
 dani
 ...
 Amiram Goldblum wrote:
 Protecting the civil rights of Noam Federman is like protecting
 the rights of the murderers in Stanley Kubrik's Clockwork Orange.
 again, very academic! can we dispense with such remarks?
 Eviathar H. Ben-Zedeff wrote:
 dear amiram,
 ... how come that your heart is bleeding only for the suffering of =
arabs ...
 eviathar
 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> Help/Info: =
http://www.ee.bgu.ac.il/~academia/Academia_List.txt
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LETTERS
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-------------->Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 10:42:13 +0200
From: "Eviathar H. Ben-Zedeff" <evi48@ZAHAV.NET.IL>
Subject: Re: decorum on the list
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=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> Caveat lector
i do agree with alon - in a democraty civil rights are granted to all =
the people by the virtue that they are born, an usually are not =
conditione ... the worst case is the ugly ones' rights.
eviathar
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-------------->Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 11:16:24 +0200
From: "Eviathar H. Ben-Zedeff" <evi48@ZAHAV.NET.IL>
Subject: Fw: Civil rights violation
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=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> Caveat lector
 dani,
 i do appologize, but it was a reflex ...
 eviathar
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-------------->Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 11:17:50 +0200
From: "Eviathar H. Ben-Zedeff" <evi48@ZAHAV.NET.IL>
Subject: the EU report on antisemitism
 charset="windows-1255"
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=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> Caveat lector
the report on european antisemitism that the EU did not want to publish =
can be retrieved at -
www.bod.org.uk
eviathar
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-------------->Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 11:55:48 +0200
From: Amiram Goldblum <amiram@VMS.HUJI.AC.IL>
Subject: Re: decorum on the list
=======> "Academia", Communication tool of the past present and future
=======> An unedited free subscription list
=======> Copied to http://www.ee.bgu.ac.il/~academia
=======> Caveat lector
I wish that I could join Alon and Eviathar without hesitating. I think that not
all murderers are the same, some are worse than others, and
once it is established (Judge or Jury) --- than rights may be "graded".
This was precisely the dilemma in Clockwork Orange, which is
the closest case that I could think of to the example of the Kahana Gangs,
as it also is to the murderers of the soldiers in Ramallah, and to quite
a few others, mostly them, but some of us as well.
At 10:42 04/12/03 +0200, Eviathar H. Ben-Zedeff wrote:
>i do agree with alon - in a democraty civil rights are granted to all the
>people by the virtue that they are born, an usually are not conditione ...
>the worst case is the ugly ones' rights.
At 09:59 04/12/03 +0200, Alon Harel wrote:
I shall add that the civil rights of the murderers in Stanley Kubrik's
Clockwork Orange ought to be protected precisely as the civil rights of any
other person. Both scholar Federman as well as his friends and admirers in
the Stanley Kubrik movie are entitled to them.
>
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--=====================_5254452==_.ALT
-------------->Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 13:14:42 +0200
From: Shaul Krakover <shaul@BGUMAIL.BGU.AC.IL>
Subject: Re: Civil rights
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=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> "Academia", Communication tool of the past present and future
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Yonathan,
I made a general case and you replied in a very personal tone. I find it =
very inappropriate.
Shaul
 If there are "terms and conditions" then Federman certainly appears a
 prime candidate! This is your brother? My condolences!
 Shaul Krakover wrote:
 >
 > Yonathan,
 > It appears that sometimes this is a necessary evil, regardless of
 > faith and nationality, especially in our complex situation. The
 > question is under what terms and conditions?
 > Shaul
 >
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-------------->Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 13:34:57 +0200
From: "Yonathan (Jon) Anson" <anson@BGUMAIL.BGU.AC.IL>
Subject: Re: Civil rights
To: academia@LISTSERV.AC.IL
Precedence: list
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at technion.ac.il
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=======> Caveat lector
Shaul
It was you who termed Federman your "brother". Even in metaphor I find
this politically problematic, and I responded, albeit ironically.
Federman and his ilk are doing everything possible 'lehorid otanu
beyagon sheola' (to drag us down into hell). The only sane response is
to distance oneself as far as possible, not to embrace them just because
they claim to be Jews. If they epitomise being Jewish, count me out! But
if Israel is a Democratic Jewish State (or has any claims to democracy),
count them out. (remember Marx's comment on the German SDP of his day,
I think -- if this is Marxism, I am not a Marxist!)
Y.
Shaul Krakover wrote:
> Yonathan,
> I made a general case and you replied in a very personal tone. I find
> it very inappropriate.
> Shaul
--
Yonathan (Jon) Anson
Department of Social Work
Ben Gurion University of the Negev
84105 Be'er Sheva, Israel.
Tel: +972 8 647 93 14 (w) +972 8 648 92 86 (h) +972 67 23 32 79 (m)
Fax: +972 8 647 29 33
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-------------->Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 15:00:32 +0200
From: Shaul Krakover <shaul@BGUMAIL.BGU.AC.IL>
Subject: Re: Civil rights
 charset="windows-1255"
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=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> "Academia", Communication tool of the past present and future
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> An unedited free subscription list
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> Copied to http://www.ee.bgu.ac.il/~academia
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> Caveat lector
Yonathan,
I don't know Federman. Anyways, I wonder what are the sources of =
information you are exposed to. No doubt, these sources have been =
successful in making you hate a person you even don't know. For the sake =
of argument, one can use your own words with respect to the left =
actions: they are going "'lehorid otanu beyagon sheola' (to drag us =
down into hell). =20
However, Federman has not been convicted for murder or other serious =
crimes. He appears to me as an activist for his beliefs and cause, =
probably an extreme activist. This by itself does not qualify him for =
the language you use, either for detention without trial in the harshest =
conditions. For sure, he seems to me as a person qualified for your =
protection as a civil rights activist at least the same way you would =
protect others for being put in administrative detention.
Shaul
 Shaul
 It was you who termed Federman your "brother". Even in metaphor I find =
 this politically problematic, and I responded, albeit ironically.=20
 Federman and his ilk are doing everything possible 'lehorid otanu=20
 beyagon sheola' (to drag us down into hell). The only sane response is =
 to distance oneself as far as possible, not to embrace them just =
because=20
 they claim to be Jews. If they epitomise being Jewish, count me out! =
But=20
 if Israel is a Democratic Jewish State (or has any claims to =
democracy),=20
 count them out. (remember Marx's comment on the German SDP of his =
day,=20
 I think -- if this is Marxism, I am not a Marxist!)
 Y.
 Shaul Krakover wrote:
 > Yonathan,
 > I made a general case and you replied in a very personal tone. I =
find=20
 > it very inappropriate.
 > Shaul
 --=20
 Yonathan (Jon) Anson
 Department of Social Work
 Ben Gurion University of the Negev
 84105 Be'er Sheva, Israel.
 Tel: +972 8 647 93 14 (w) +972 8 648 92 86 (h) +972 67 23 32 79 (m)
 Fax: +972 8 647 29 33
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> Help/Info: http://www.ee.bgu.ac.il/~academia/Academia_List.txt
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> PLEASE AVOID LONG QUOTES AND RAW FORWARDS
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=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> maintainer e-mail: <censor@ee.bgu.ac.il>
-------------->Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 15:42:30 +0200
From: Sam Rakover <rakover@PSY.HAIFA.AC.IL>
=======> "Academia", Communication tool of the past present and future
=======> An unedited free subscription list
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=======> Caveat lector
Dear All,
I invite you all to read my short stories in my web site:
http://stage.co.il/usr_author.html
I hope you will enjoy reading them. Thanks. Sam S. Rakover.
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