INTERVIEW / Beitrag vom 03.12.2014
"Israel does not want peace"
Moshe Zuckermann in conversation with Dirk-Oliver Heckmann
On the Israeli flag, the shadow of a person reflects
In Israel, the government is politically once again at the end.
The fraction of government in Israel is not a question of personal initiative, but a structural problem. "Well, it's over," Moshe Zuckermann said, a historian at the University of Tel Aviv, in the DLF. He sees Israel on the way to the apartheid state.
The break of the government is not a personal initiative of Justice Minister Tzipi Livni or Finance Minister Yair Lapid, but a structural problem from the beginning, said the historian Moshe Zuckermann. For him Netanyahus rumor against they dismissed ministers is nothing but rhetoric.
Benjamin Netanyahu himself said, that this government was imposed on him due to the election results. "So it was from the start a very precarious coalition," Zuckerman said. It was good that it has come to an end. People where unable to talk to each other in the end. It was no longer possible to hold normally government meetings.
Netanyahu did not want to make peace. "Livni has made clear from the outset, when she came into this coalition, it is only because of the foreign policy agenda," Zuckerman said.
The law, which aims to strengthen the Jewish character of the Israeli state, Zuckermann, names as "racist". For now it is off the table, but if there should be an even more extreme government at the next election, the prognosis for the law will be much better..
The full interview:
Dirk-Oliver Heckmann: Hectic bustle are currently underway in Jerusalem, because once again a government is politically at the end. This time it is the center-right government of Benjamin Netanyahu. Yesterday, the Prime Minister announced that he runs for new elections. He accused Finance Minister Lapid and Justice Minister Livni he of plotting a coup against him, and therefor has removed them from their posts. On the phone now Moshe Zuckermann, a historian at the University of Tel Aviv. Good morning, Mr. Zuckerman.
Moshe Zuckermann: Good morning.
Heckmann: From your point of view, are the allegations of Netanyahu valid, or are they more rhetoric?
Zuckerman: I think it's more rhetoric, because the problem with which we are dealing here, a break of this government is, indeed no question of a personal initiative of Livni or Lapid, but the structural problem this government faced from the beginning. Netanyahu himself says that it had been a forced upon him government, precisely because of the results of the last election, and therefore it suffered from the start of its very precarious constellation and the coalition built up.
However, what could have been made with this government, is something quite different from what in fact has been done, and therefore we can say that it is good that it has come to an end, for as in the last few days people were already so frustrated and angry that they even could not talk to each other any more and that it was no longer possible to hold even ordinary government meetings.
"Its good, it's over."
Heckmann: Mr. Zuckerman, may I hook in? Netanyahu yesterday concretely did accuse his Justice Minister Livni of having met with Palestinian President Abbas, without having had the okay of the Government. This is more then the head of government can accept, right?
Zuckerman: Oh, that's nonsense! Look, if Netanyahu said about four or six years ago, how much it was his program, the two-state solution, then it should be out of question why Livni tried to pursue this program, but why then Netanyahu did everything he could do to every opportunity to reach a peace agreement with Abbas to undermine the last two to six years.
So to to say, of course you can formalize this thing and say she has not formally discussed it with him, but Livni has made clear from the start, as she came into this coalition, it is only because of the political, foreign policy agenda.
Therefore, one can not say in all seriousness that she since has made something that not has been somehow located on the line, which has approved at least in the past by Netanyahu.
The problem was that it has really come on the human level to a clash that it is now more or less come to a culmination, and now it's over. And you know what? Good, it's over.
Law is "racist"
Heckmann: the reason of the recent rift was a law that should strengthen the Jewish character of the State of Israel. What do you think of this law?
Zuckerman: This is a racist law. I mean, what do we really think it means when a state wants to find out all of a sudden after 60 years of existence, what's its kind of character?What the hell is this? Imagine, in Germany, you would try now somehow to bring in a law to strengthen the German character of the German state. Now you can tell me, what would you think of it. That is absolute nonsense. And the fact that this was somehow brought into concideration was, because they just want to make no peace policy, because they were more and more exposed to a rightward shift in the interior and Netanyahu had already understood very well that he is now approaching elections, and therefore tries to overtake Bennett and other people from the right-wing camp from an even more right position. That has something to do with the fact, that he allowed Halkin and such people to act as they wanted. So I think this law is not only absolutely worthless, but I think that this is a racist law, more or less offending the 20 percent of the legal Israeli citizens, ie the Arabs .
Heckmann: Do you believe, Mr. Zuckerman, this law, which you call racist will be implemented?
Zuckerman: Right now it does not look like, because the government has dissolved as I said. But should the next coalition as a result of the coming elections - probably be scheduled for March - will be formed, and for my understanding this will happen, by Netanyahu going together with Bennett and with the Orthodox or the religious, then it could be implemented very well. There will be no more oppositionin the coalition that is against the law, such as the one of Lapid and Livni during in recent weeks. Should it come to the results as expected for the next coalition government, the prognosis for this law is better, compared to now.
Heckmann: You think there will be an even more extreme government after the elections?
Zuckerman: Yes, that's what Netanyahu always called his natural partner. His natural partners were always the right-wing National Religious, the Jewish Home of Naftali Bennett, the national-religious, formerly the Naftal party. He always had a good organization with the Orthodox, with the Oriental Orthodox Shas -party, as well as the Ashkenazi Orthodox. So I think when he gets the mandate to form a new government - and it looks like this; I do not think there is anyone there at the moment who can challenge him - then he will go in that direction. Of course you have to wait and see what will be the election results.
"Israel wants no peace"
Heckmann: Why is it, in your view, that the liberal forces threaten increasingly coming under the wheels in the population?
Zuckerman: The question is if you somehow now want to know their personal capacity, or if you want to know the structurally. Personally means that it's actually charismatic enough or does not have enough inner power for sting seriously. Look at the Labor Party, for decades this a party was paralyzed on the ground and is no longer able to stand up against Netanyahu in any way. The structural response, why the liberal forces are not strengthening would be, because basically nobody wants what liberal forces usually want, namely to seek peace.
I do not think that Israel wants peace, and I believe that each other's balance holds in the way how to prevent this peace. I think in the population that is more or less reflected. The population selected again and again the governments that want to have peace.
Heckmann: What does the whole development now mean for the "peace process" if you still can call it that, with the Palestinians?
Zuckerman: First, exactly what you've done right now, that you put in the quotes, and that means then that it looks to secure peace in the moment like nothing. However, this also means for Israel that Israel is moving towards a bi-national structure that it has basically now generated already manifest. And then the big question is, if you want to have a bi-national structure. If you want to have a democratic bi-national state sanctioned? Of course nobody wants in Israel. And then passes on to an apartheid state and that is more or less the trend at the moment.
Heckmann: The opinion of Moshe Zuckermann, a historian at the University of Tel Aviv. Mr. Zuckerman, thank you for the interview.
Zuckerman: Thank you.