21.03.24

Editorial Note

Prof. Nadera Shalhoub-Kevorkian, a professor of Criminology at the Hebrew University Law Faculty, caused a stir. Throughout the years, IAM reported on her anti-Israel publications and activities numerous times. Shalhoub-Kevorkian is an Israeli-Christian Arab born in Haifa, married an Armenian, and moved to the Armenian Quarter in Jerusalem. Recently, she was interviewed for the Makdisi Street podcast on Mar 9, 2024. A podcast co-hosted by Palestinians Saree Makdisi, Ussama Makdisi, and Karim Makdisi, whose maternal great-uncle was the renowned author Edward Said. According to the Podcast, “The brothers talk with Dr. Nadera Shalhoub-Kevorkian about life under occupation in East Jerusalem, the scattering and reconstitution of Palestinian bodies and Palestine itself, and the affirmation of life and love that lie at the heart of the Palestinian struggle for freedom.”

In her interview Shalhoub-Kevorkian said, (1:17:10) “yes it’s time to abolish Zionism, this is where I’m going today, just abolish Zionism. Well, it can’t continue, it cannot, it’s criminal, it’s criminal. Only by abolishing Zionism, we can continue, this is what I see.”

(1:18:29) “I read it as shaming the state of Israel because they’re using women’s bodies, women’s sexuality and women’s intimate life to play with it in political terms, now if rapes, abuses, sexual abuses, gang rapes it always happened in war times.”

 (1:20:43) “we don’t see women coming out and saying what happened, so women’s bodies are being used as political weapons, if it happens not in my my name, if it didn’t happen, it’s shame on the state to use women’s bodies and sexuality to promote political agendas to promote further dispossession of land to promote further killing, to promote abuse and rape and you know keep in mind that the rapability of the Palestinians based on the Zionist agenda, is hard at work hard at work in so many ways and I’ve, again, have written about that and the State Crime that is sexualized and gender right is there, so we need to, we need to, number one, remember this is a very dishonest to come to say the the state, they will use everything to further kill, it’s a killing machine and it’s a necro, political regime that can survive only on the erasure of Palestinians and only when they will stop this and they will acknowledge what they’re doing we can start talking, like, but not to criminals, criminals should be punished.”

 (1:22:07) “when I look at the pictures at the photos of soldiers today getting into Palestinian homes using the laundry, playing with it using and laughing and putting it on tanks and putting it on rifles, what is it, what is this if it’s not sexual abuse? when you see the way they’re treating men undressing them keeping them with nothing, using that, what is it if it’s not sexual abuse?… the body of the Palestinian, the living body, the dead body, the cut to pieces body, are all capital in the hands of this Zionist entity and of course they will use any lie, they started with babies, they continued with rape, they will continue with million other lies, every day with another story, we stopped believing them. I hope that the world will stop believing them and if things like this happened, not in my name, I will never approve it.” 

The interview angered many Israeli audiences, and MK Sharren Haskel wrote in protest. The Hebrew University posted a statement reacting to Prof. Nadera Shalhoub-Kevorkian’s interview. It says, “The Hebrew University rejects with disgust all of Prof. Kevorkian’s distorted statements. The Hebrew University is proud to be an Israeli, public and Zionist institution. As in the past, the heads of the University repeated their call for Prof. Kevorkian to find another academic home that matches her position. At this point, the University has decided to suspend her from teaching in order to maintain a safe climate on campus for the benefit of our students.”

In response, a letter protesting the decision of the Hebrew University administration was signed by 90 staff members. It said, “We strongly disapprove of Prof. Shalhoub-Kevorkian’s words in an interview published on the Internet, and some of us even participated in a letter condemning her similar words in a petition she initiated, near the beginning of the war. On the other hand, we believed then and today that the only permissible response to these things is to condemn and reject them… the decision of the administration and the deans suffers from three main issues: first, in terms of authority, a decision on the suspension, permanent or temporary, of a faculty member is possible only after a complaint has been submitted to a disciplinary committee and it is submitted to the head of the Faculty Disciplinary Court or the Commissioner for the Prevention of Sexual Harassment, only after the faculty member has been given the right to argue and while respecting the right to appeal. Second, from a substantive point of view, we believe there is no incitement to violence, terrorism, or racism, in what Prof. Shalhoub-Kevorkian said in the interview, and there is no danger from them… Third, the reaction of the administration of the University could seriously harm the status of the University and may intensify the calls for an international academic boycott of it… In light of all this, we call on the University administration to cancel the decision, given without authority, regarding the suspension of Prof. Shalhoub-Kevorkian from teaching. The administration must act by the provisions of the disciplinary regulations if it believes that there is a suspicion that some disciplinary offense has been committed.”

 Another angry response came from Professor Yuri Pines, who, in protest, resigned from his position as the Director of the Confucius Center at the University. His response was posted by Academia for Equality (A4E). He wrote, “Asher and Tamir Shalom, I was amazed to discover – unfortunately, indirectly and without a statement on your part – the despicable content of the letter you wrote to MK Sharren Haskel. I never thought that the Hebrew University was a Zionist institution: I saw it as an academic institution where Zionists, non-Zionists, and also people who oppose Zionism like myself can work. I also thought that the Hebrew University is led by people who are wise enough to understand that the issue of whether Israel is committing genocide in Gaza or just ‘normal’ war crimes belongs precisely to the area where lecturers and students can express themselves freely. I have never heard of a lecturer being suspended, whatever his/her political positions may be. And I never knew there was a political position test that we are obliged to take in order teach in the university. It seems that I was wrong in my assessments of the university and its leaders, and I must take responsibility. I hereby announce that from now on I refuse to do any work at the university that involves its representation in Israel or abroad. Therefore, I am ceasing my work as director of the Confucius Institute and will not accept any position in the future. I will inform my close colleagues of this decision. You have really disgraced the institution. I have never felt so betrayed and humiliated.” Worth noting that Prof. Neve Gordon translated the letter. 

When A4E was confronted for supporting Shalhoub-Kevorkian, it responded that accusations against Shalhoub-Kevorkian were lies. A4E claimed it brought the “exact” wording where Shalhoub-Kevorkian said: “My reaction to the stories on October 7th were horrified. I was talking to all my friends saying, not in my name. I will never allow anybody to touch a baby, to kidnap a child, to rape a woman. This is not in my name and I will never accept it as a Palestinian because all our lives, we fought for the dignity, for life, for the wholeness of a human and not the opposite. So not in my name and nobody can do it in my name. Yeah, but the production of those stories, to produce fear, to fear us more, to kill us more, to reach a space where by not only killability, overkillability, it’s not enough to kill you.” That was… This is something that I’ve written about and in my book on un-childing, it opens up the chapter on the Nakka area. Abuses and sexual abuse happened and it shouldn’t happen. And I will never approve it, not to Israelis nor to Palestinians, and not in my name. The reports sometimes can get testimonies, some other times cannot get testimonies. The issue is that is Israel allowing proper collection of evidence? Plus, you know, personally, as a feminist, I do not… I don’t go and interrogate the rape victims. If a woman said she was raped, I will believe her.”

As can be seen, A4E cherry-picked Shalhoub-Kevorkian’s wording to clear her from accusations. But, IAM summarized what Shalhoub-Kevorkian actually said, “yes it’s time to abolish Zionism, this is where I’m going today, just abolish Zionism. Well, it can’t continue… it’s criminal. Only by abolishing Zionism we can continue.” And that, “the state of Israel is using women’s bodies to play with in political terms… we don’t see women coming out and saying what happened… it’s shame on the state to use women’s bodies and sexuality to promote political agendas… to promote further dispossession of land to promote further killing, to promote abuse and rape and you know keep in mind that the rapability of the Palestinians based on the Zionist agenda… the state, they will use everything to further kill, it’s a killing machine and it’s a necro, political regime that can survive only on the erasure of Palestinians… soldiers today getting into Palestinian homes using the laundry, playing with it using and laughing and putting it on tanks and putting it on rifles, what is it, what is this if it’s not sexual abuse?… the body of the Palestinian, the living body, the dead body, the cut to pieces body, are all capital in the hands of this Zionist entity and of course they will use any lie, they started with babies, they continued with rape, they will continue with million other lies, every day with another story, we stopped believing them. I hope that the world will stop believing them.”

Shalhoub-Kevorkian was suspended for four days till the end of the semester on March 17, 2024. The question is, would she return to teach in the second semester on May 5, 2024? The Dean of Social Work conditioned her return on acknowledging the brutal nature of the assault by Hamas. He explained that the suspension was not about political views; rather than the fact that she denied Hamas’s behavior that was widely documented and denounced by the United Nations and most of the international human rights community.

A study on academic freedoms published by IAM in 2014, found that Israeli universities are highly tolerant of their faculty’s expressions. Several Hebrew University professors, including Yeshayahu Leibowitz, accused Israel of Nazi-like behavior or used some other unsavory comparisons. Hebrew University and almost all universities are public institutions supported by the taxpayer.  

Finally, as a Christian, Shalhoub-Kevorkian must be aware that Christians, other minorities, and women who live under the Islamist rule of Hamas, influenced by Iran, suffer from daily discrimination and persecution. Yet neither she nor any of her colleagues have ever spoken out against this issue. 

The reason is, as IAM has repeatedly stated, in the eyes of the radical-leftist academic elites, “Israel can do no right, and the Palestinians can do no wrong.”

REFERENCES:

Transcript provided by Youtube

0:00
welcome to a new episode of the Makdisi Street podcast my name is Usama makdisi
0:05
and I’m joined as always by my brothers Saree here hello and Karim hi everybody
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bonus content um as well as a Q&A which we will um in involve our patreon
1:05
listeners and subscribers very soon um today however I’d like to introduce our
1:12
our main guest we’re joined um by Dr nadir shalhub Koran Dr Nadira is is one
1:21
of the most extremely distinguished uh Palestinian Scholars that I’m aware of of great International standing nadir is
1:29
a a professor and a chair of global law at Queen Mary University she’s at The
1:34
Cutting Edge of a critical work on feminism on public health on trauma as
1:40
they relate to the ongoing Palestinian reality of constant dispossession of
1:46
brutalization of violence uh and yet also she focuses on how Palestinians also continue to resist Israeli
1:54
colonization Nida really is a humanist among the dehumanized a humanist in the face of humanizer her work includes
2:02
dozens of essays and book chapters and articles and several hugely impactful books including the most recent book of
2:09
hers which is entitled incarcerated childhood and the politics of unchild
2:14
that was published by Cambridge University press in 2019 um NAD has received Awards and
2:21
accolades from around the world and in South Africa she told me when I saw her last saw her here at Berkeley she told
2:29
me well the great Nelson Mandela told her in 1999 of an African proverb until
2:35
the Lions have their historians tales of the hunt shall always glorify the Hunter
2:40
and because NAD is a Palestinian lioness or lion working on the Palestinian experience in an extraordinarily
2:46
unflinching and honest manner she has of course been defamed and threatened uh
2:52
mostly by Israeli settlers who encroached on her home in East Jerusalem
2:57
and who always harass her uh so so NAD welcome first and foremost to our
3:03
podcast and to the Mak Street podcast we’re really happy and honored to have you with us
3:09
today thank you thank you AMA thank you s and and Kim as well and we we would
3:16
love to um we would love to just start n obviously with the most basic and
3:21
obvious question how are you how are you holding up in this moment of of
3:27
extraordinary uh evil and genocide and and just tell us how how you are
3:33
please well as you know it’s we’ve never lived in an ongoing
3:40
genocide and it’s it’s hard to wake up in the morning this is what I was trying
3:45
to tell Kim it’s it’s just hard to hold it and check the news because every day
3:52
I’m losing another kid I have interviewed another colleague I have worked with another student who had
3:58
dreams and and um and this constant loss the atrocities the violence the state
4:05
violence and the fact that it’s not acknowledged is very very very heavy on
4:11
my heart and um yeah today was a tough day because of them because I lost
4:18
another close friend of mine you know every day is is is um is lost so it’s
4:25
this from one side you feel that we’ve never lived in such a tough very tough
4:31
situation and uh unfortunately as an academic epistemic violence is hard at
4:37
work as well so it’s not only the actual violence State violence the brutality the lack of acknowledgment of the pain
4:44
of Palestinians but but rather the fact that you go into an academic institution
4:50
and you see epistemic violence the production of of of violence that is that is produced in highly uh recognized
4:58
academic settings and institution this is what also a is
5:04
agonizing and of course being in in occupied East Jerusalem is not an easy thing to do at
5:13
all you know just coming back to be able to participate in this um in in this um
5:20
Gathering of ours was not a joke because the there was an attack of um of Jewish
5:27
settlers on the Armenian uh uh in the Armenian area and all of a sudden I’m
5:32
getting those text messages and whatsapps uh please come please come join us they’re attacking so it’s this
5:40
day-to-day uh living situation that are making life too heavy really too
5:47
heavy so NAD on on that on that and honestly we’re we’re of course deeply
5:52
affected and and and sorry that you have to go through this and live through this and you’ve been living through this you
5:58
know for decades and decades es for our viewers and listeners you live in the Armenian quarter correct in Jerusalem um
6:05
can you tell us a little bit more about what life is like there and how there’s a genocide going on in Gaza and all the
6:11
attention today obviously and understandably is on the the plight of the Palestinians in Gaza but of course
6:17
there are Palestinians in Jerusalem there are Palestinians inside um Palestine there are Palestinians in the
6:23
West Bank can you tell us a little bit about what’s the relationship between the experience you’re going through in
6:29
Jerusalem with what’s going on in Gaza and the West Bank you know I I think
6:35
that one of the ways to look at what goes on is that if they are attacking on one side they do million other things on
6:42
the other side so if they’re killing demolishing bombs starving people
6:48
leaving babies in uh to be decomposed in incubators in Gaza what you see in
6:54
Jerusalem or in the West Bank is is surveillance is H militarization is
7:01
militarization of schools is demolitions like two three days ago I woke up like opening my my my Instagram or my my
7:09
Facebook and all of a sudden I see my dentist and he’s like telling telling
7:14
everybody they demolished my house they so it’s here just by by my house so to
7:20
see Dr nidal and I know Dr nidal Who work you know building his house bit by
7:27
bit working so hard and all of a sudden the house demolished so what you what is
7:32
happening in every single space whether it’s in hia where they’re arresting an
7:38
artist because she wrote something whether our students in different universities in Palestinian students in
7:44
Israeli universities that cannot open their mouth or say something because it might be considered against the the
7:51
state whether University professors like me who signed a a petition saying stop
7:56
the genocide and calling for ceasefire that that made everybody go you know
8:01
bizarre or or even you know I can tell you that when when was it on on Sunday
8:07
Sunday I I learned about um a child who was 14 years old who was
8:14
shot and killed he he was allegedly accused of stabbing a
8:19
soldier um they managed to shoot him but he was not dead but then a female
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Soldier came Point Blank and shot him and you see in the video his body just jumping 36 kilos 37 kilos a kid and I
8:35
needed to go to the family to see a mother of 34 year old to see his brother
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uh ham and bah and and to listen to his father and the the request is to release
8:49
his dead body from the Israeli refrigerators you understand these are
8:54
issues and then I I I come home and I tell them okay let’s see how how we can
8:59
convince the Israelis we’re talking about a child his unchild did even when he’s dead even in the Israeli freezers
9:07
and the mother is telling me that her hands are very cold because she feels that he is cold and that he is calling
9:14
from the freezers you know like and and think about his classmates think about
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his school friends think about his relative think about everybody and like
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for God’s sake return free his dead body from your freezers so of course I was
9:33
busy with the family I needed to go to to visit them I needed to talk to the
9:38
special reporter Franchesca Alban and write her and tell her uh dear
9:44
Franchesca please you know this is a 14-year-old kid can you please help me
9:49
release him now we know that it’s after Gaza and after October 7th I’ve done
9:54
that before and I was able to pressure the Israelis to release the the the dead
9:59
body of Nasim abumi who was also 14 years old and who our only request was
10:05
to return his body in a Humane Manner and that it’s not very free so that the
10:11
mother can hug and the father can bury properly and in in this case sorry n
10:17
sorry on that point I think many of our readers and listeners in fact I didn’t know this till I talked to you about
10:23
this they won’t know that when the Israelis if you are able to persuade them to release a body they always do it
10:30
in such a way that the body is sped out all still like not we like we always
10:36
imagine a body like in a morg you know with a sheet and stuff like that that’s not how they they return the body bloody
10:41
and muddy and dirty and Frozen and in in contorted and terrible shapes right that’s it’s part of this continuing
10:47
abuse that you’re talking about in in the cases that I dealt with in the cases that and I’m talking about occupied East
10:54
Jerusalem actually in in one case it was in in Nabis where the legs were in
11:00
condition that there was no possibility of burying uh uh the Martyr in in one
11:08
case that I personally was following up and dealt with and we were seven months in the courts trying to convince the
11:14
court to release the body of Hassam manasan and Hassan was 15 years old uh
11:20
when they released the body the father could not handle what he’ve seen I’ve
11:25
written about it I have an article called persistent faces because the father came back telling me yeah you
11:34
know do his mouth was open he was talking maybe they closed the black bag
11:42
while he was still alive his eyes were tearing he was crying maybe and then the feeling of the
11:49
father that there’s something he failed in protecting his child even his in his
11:55
death and after seven months of struggling with the Israeli police and Court to release the body of Hassan Abu
12:02
Brahim his father came to because they asked the father to recognize the body
12:08
and of course after putting million conditions only 23 or 33 people and you
12:14
can’t have your phones you can’t have this you can’t have that until we manage to reach there he goes into the
12:20
ambulance to see the body and he sees Hassan’s face in a way that he could
12:26
not take him and he said no this is not my son and he returned the body back now
12:33
according to Islam if you want to respect the dead
12:38
you need to bury them so everybody was upset at the father how dare you return
12:44
the body after soone like you need to respect your son but then when talking
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to the father and listening to his narration and his narrative is what usually my compass is people’s
12:57
narratives I don’t look at laws I don’t look at this is as a person who works in the criminalities of the states and
13:04
basically in criminalities in spaces of death this is where you see that the the
13:11
the pinology the punishment is not only of the living the punishment is of the
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dead so in the case in the last case last two days ago three days ago you
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know talking to the parents and and asking this is why I asked Franchesca Alania who’s a un reporter for the
13:32
occupied the Palestinian territories can you please help me release V’s body
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because his parents are requesting this and because they need to give him the proper barrier because this is a child
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and a child that is dead in the freezers there’s no need and this I call it in my
13:51
writing necrology it’s penalizing the dead but it’s actually penalizing the family
13:59
penalizing his classmates and it’s it’s increasing the this feeling of so of of
14:06
of being oppressed and dominated so this is Jerusalem while in Gaza you see
14:12
genocide you here see what I call in my writing it’s the attack from all sides
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it’s the attack even over the dead body of of of and mind you is the third
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in one family their cousins his was his cousin Ahmed was a month before was shot
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and killed and now vadia 14y old so you wonder how much a family can handle and
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I went to the family I was looking at the faces and I’m I know those faces every funeral I end up seeing the same
14:53
faces so this is Jerusalem Jerusalem is is packed with with agonies and
15:01
it’s I don’t know how to put it but it’s it’s on so many levels you know you you
15:08
just shared with the with the people that I live in The Old City I live in the old city in the Armenian quarter I
15:14
live in Armenian quarter of course the name the the name of my street was changed it
15:21
was so now it’s kabad street so of course everything is being changed but
15:27
again if when I go to get my grocery from the old city uh talking to shop
15:35
owners that’s another painful very painful story yeah I can tell you one
15:42
story that was it two two and a half weeks ago
15:47
when the neighbor was telling me uh I need to talk to you about something come
15:54
come let’s talk of course they know that um I I I write I deal I live I I I I
16:02
observe I’m constantly talking to the shop owners and and he he we sat in
16:09
those short um chairs you know in the old city and he said I need to tell you
16:16
something I didn’t tell my kids tell me and he’s like he couldn’t
16:23
speak he started crying and then he shared with me the fact that some
16:30
settlers uh in in the morning hours while he came to open his his shop they
16:37
pushed him down and they peed on his
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beard now you’re talking to a man who’s 65 70 years
16:49
old um and you know telling me a
16:56
woman that tried to about violence sexual violence but to see three
17:05
settlers peeing on an old man in The Old City on his beard is very very very
17:13
painful so this is what’s happening in Jerusalem so between Dr Nidan my dentist
17:18
that his house that he ended up actually demolishing his house in his own hands
17:23
because if the Israelis will demolish his house he would he must pay the money
17:29
for the police that is coming the soldiers that are participating their breakfast of course and the bulldozers
17:34
that are bulldozing the house yeah and and and and uh my neighbor the shop
17:41
owner with with the agonies and with the cries of an old man Abu Hassan with
17:46
Hassan’s dead body and now Abu and IM that are hoping and waiting and I’m I’m
17:52
I’m running around asking how can we how can we handle so it’s heavy it’s heavy
17:58
Jerusalem is about judaization is about getting us out of the place it’s about
18:05
not to see Palestinians the formula is the less Palestinians the better so this
18:10
is what you see in everything they’re doing it’s taking over land like in the Armenian quarter and and and claiming
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it’s their so they they call it developing they call it developers or
18:24
investors these are settlers it’s settler settler col colal and settler
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colonialism was done by law so they’re using the law so in demolishing the
18:35
house it’s the law in in in taking over the land it’s the law in withholding
18:40
dead bodies it’s the law so it’s heavy it’s heavy and this is Jerusalem n one of the I mean this is
18:50
incredibly disturbing for all of us to hear of course but one of the one of the Striking things about the Israeli
18:57
settler Colonial project of course now you know most of the world’s attention is you know rightly on Gaza because the
19:02
scale there is so enormous right but what you’re telling us reminds us that
19:09
it’s when we’re talking about the Israeli state and its appendages like the you know the settlers and so on it’s
19:16
what we’re dealing with is a kind of full spectrum full spectrum I mean like from the large scale to the tiny tiny
19:22
tiny like the story of these horrible people urinating on a man’s beard for example like that’s so it I mean
19:29
obviously it’s horrible but it’s in it’s so and they have such attention to the smallest details of malice and and evil
19:37
and then of course the large scale you know bomb killing a 100 people at a time in a single bomb in Gaza and that sort
19:42
of thing this I don’t think I mean I could be wrong I’m sitting near a historian here but I don’t think that
19:48
there has ever been in history a project of systematic evil on that that’s that’s
19:56
that encompasses everything from the large L scale I mean there have been many genocides unfortunately in the past
20:01
genocide in and of itself is not unique dispossession Colonial dispossession ethnic cleansing they’ve happened before
20:08
but that there’s something about the Israeli project that runs the Spectrum from huge scale down to these tiny tiny
20:16
tiny tiny I mean obviously for the people concerned they’re not tiny but but on on a human scale they’re tiny you
20:23
know like this thing about the children’s bodies or the the individual
20:28
uh the the indiv like that the person has to destroy his own house to save the the shekels that otherwise the state
20:34
would charge him for for demolition uh the the the the per down to the personal
20:40
level of you know you walking down the street I’ve heard you tell me stories about your life in East Jerusalem at a
20:46
very very micrologic personal level so the Israeli assault on Palestinian life
20:52
runs this spectrum from the minuscule to the large scale and that’s part of what
20:57
makes makes it this unprecedented evil that I don’t think that there’s any other I mean I can’t I don’t know
21:03
another example uh there’s obviously this human history has has evil but not
21:08
in this kind of way but also also now that we’re also said we’re also in 2024 I mean we’re talking about it’s the
21:14
anachronism of what we’re talking about it’s the shocking levels of anachronism of this colonial project that unfolding
21:21
before our eyes so NAD maybe you could speak to this this this issue and also this question all your writing NAD all
21:28
your experience all the invitations you’ve had around the world and I’m wondering how you know maybe this is
21:34
maybe not even an appropriate question but how do do do you feel that that in
21:39
since you talked about epistemic violence in Academia among people who’ve talked about s colonialism do you feel
21:45
that that there has been a response or I mean I don’t know maybe it just these are different sets of questions one is
21:51
the anachronism and the and the full spectrum of Israeli colonialism and the and the violence that it inflicts on on
21:58
on an extraordinary level and on a micro level constantly there’s the question of anachronism and then there’s a question
22:04
of these are several questions so choose what you want the question of how do you feel you know all the academic work that
22:12
you’ve done and that we’ve done especially you’ve done do you feel that it it it it has made a that people
22:18
actually understand this level of of of extraordinary violence and and what has the response been to you and and that
22:25
you’ve seen these are different questions I’m sorry but what you’re saying is so haunting honestly
22:31
NAD you you know what at this point I don’t see that the Israeli
22:38
Society is seeing us let me start there you know I’m I’m really I’m sharing th
22:45
those day-to-day experiences to point that the mundane violence is very
22:53
important yes we probably do not count and maybe you know we need to be dead
22:59
bodies but not even dead bodies because we’re still not counting as dead bodies
23:05
because what is still in the in the in their Israeli freezers yeah but the
23:10
mundan violence is what I’m pointing to and it’s in the everydayness where I
23:17
start where I work where I write yeah it’s the the the kids that are on their
23:22
way to school that are being harassed yeah where boys are stopped and served
23:28
and all of a sudden they’re asking them to take off their socks because then the rifle can be exactly in a penetrat
23:34
manner in a rapable manner so you see those scenes every morning and you wonder do you think that the kids are
23:41
not comprehending it’s about power it’s about we are here and and you need to
23:48
evaporate somehow so the inhalation in Gaza is is hard at work and they don’t
23:55
care they don’t care the every time listen just look at us when we were
24:00
watching Gaza in every single aspect of watching Gaza uh we were saying okay they will
24:07
stop there is no way you know it’s too much like in in October I lost a a a
24:13
friend with her three kids on in October 17th I woke up with this scene of the
24:21
father holding the bags plastic bags screaming to everybody in Gaza yanas y
24:28
hadu these are my kids his kids dead bodies were in the plastic I
24:35
was sure the world would stand and would say no we won’t allow it to continue
24:42
that was in October 17th and today we’re in March and it
24:49
continues and more atrocities so number one a as a person who looks at the
24:55
Mandan and I think it’s very important to look what what is happening what is happening to pregnant women what is
25:01
happening to babies what is happening to men the undressing the humiliation you
25:07
know the new report that came yesterday of of of sexually abusing men and it’s
25:13
by the UN yes in in Gaza these are things that we need to look at and to
25:19
wonder really and I agree with Stud to wonder which settler Colonial entity
25:24
that the issue is maybe it happened but today everything is on
25:30
camera everything is seeing everybody is seeing everybody is
25:36
noticing things and and uh what I believe is that there are two
25:43
main factors in looking at what is going on because once we said it’s the biopolitics okay so it’s about uh uh
25:51
it’s about judaizing all Palestine okay then we said it’s demography there a
25:57
frayed from us because we’re a demographic threat then you know my work in 2014 my book on security theology
26:04
surveillance and the politics of fear I said you know it’s fear it’s the effect
26:10
of of of the history of the sists that are here it’s the security and security
26:17
became a theology but it’s if you add this security theology with the
26:23
sacralized politics which is God gave them the land and then the amount of
26:30
violence today I’m not there or here I’m not with you I say yes there is security
26:36
theology there is sacralized part but there’s another point that is really uh capturing me I feel that and I see as as
26:46
a as a as a criminologist that we are ontologically non being the story is not
26:54
only it’s not only about you know know human humanity and human rights no no no
27:02
all the world is seeing what is happening to Palestinians but ontologically we are nonone being there
27:09
is no other way to accept life for mothers for for men for there’s no way
27:16
every Power has a counterpower people will continue resisting Palestinians are
27:21
resisting in every way in every way they were incarcerated and with the with the
27:28
spoon they managed to get out of the prison yeah people it’s not this is the
27:33
normal like think in Psycho analytical terms think in criminological terms
27:39
think in any sociological Theory every Power has a counter power yeah but what
27:46
we are seeing and this is the father with the two plastic bags what was he saying he was telling the world when
27:53
he’s saying hadu he is really claiming what was
28:00
ontologically not claimed as a being this is how I see it I see it that there
28:06
is a major major failure in in the world
28:12
way in the world’s way of of looking at this is why if you’ll ask me where I’m
28:17
standing today and it might sound crazy to to some of you but I’m writing about
28:23
ashl I’m writing about body bags body parts because in in the history of
28:30
slavery you see Scholars writing about the flesh yeah or you you see the work
28:37
of HZ Piller in in her article Baba’s Mayes Papa’s may you see the work of
28:43
wahas when he’s talking about Happ viscos you see you see the work of of of
28:49
last book of um uh Jackson Zakia Jackson
28:55
but in Palestine it’s not good enough for me it’s somehow
29:01
Fon wrote about the flesh today I feel it’s the ASL it’s the scattered body
29:07
parts it’s the really I am I am there because I’m I am starting from that gam
29:15
father’s voice and his kids as yeah in the plastic bags those scattered body
29:21
pieces in those sides of the intimate love to his children that became dead
29:27
pieces of Flesh the overkilled by the settler States Machinery of this
29:33
possession and that is continuing and as a Palestinian feminist that is theorizing ashla I I’m
29:40
I’m really looking at this moment with this ongoing
29:45
genocide I can’t think but through the Palestinian gathered bagged scattered
29:53
unfounded ashl because ashl is untranslatable yeah in English but it’s
29:59
it’s those where the cut dead bodies means securitized and sacralized
30:06
Necessities to Israel according to them according to their logic according to their policies according to their
30:13
imaginaries where dead Palestinian bodies are like scattered in the Wind on
30:20
the ruins of demolished flattened Gaza and and it’s this ashla
30:27
uh to me is where I’m I’m this is where you know the the the massacre the flower
30:34
Massacre where pal over pales 100 Palestinian were killed yes 750 were
30:41
injured and then collected reassembled the the ashl by their by
30:47
their loved ones this is why you know when I think about it and I I I feel I
30:52
argue today that Ash the the scatter the cut body part indexes patterns of
31:01
colonial atrocities policies genocide that is refusing to accept the humanity
31:09
ontologically of the Palestinian yeah because because when the father is
31:15
saying hadu yeah he is he is reclaiming his
31:22
fatherhood uh although as in plastic bags but he’s maintaining
31:28
the non orphaning condition of his of his kids you know I’ve seen it I’ve seen
31:33
it m and Dr hanin also shared uh that her
31:39
father her uncle her cousins other members of her family were were hit by a
31:45
rocket and they were turned AA and then she said you know I heard dogs I heard
31:51
cats eating my family members and I was running after cats and dogs to collect
31:57
the ash to bury them to dignify the family so what I see today in in
32:04
Palestine I see that ontologically we’re not counted we’re not we’re n
32:12
being epistemic violence is clear in media in politicians in academic writing
32:22
and I’m here like what can I tell you this is what I’m writing about
32:27
I’m writing about Ash I’m thinking about Ash I woke up in
32:33
the morning and this is what I think about I’m always worried that another
32:39
loved ones and I see the Defiance of Palestinians you know um um Samar is seven years old her
32:51
father shared a video of her she was holding her cat
32:57
and she was talking to her cat telling her
33:03
cat don’t you even dare eating me after I die is AED if I’ll die
33:13
don’t eat my flesh you understand what I see here
33:18
what I see is that the entire world failed Sumer so she’s talking maybe her
33:24
bissy her cat maybe she will hear her because the
33:30
world is not hearing Palestinian voices not in Jerusalem for years I’m writing and I’m
33:37
asking and I’m telling people come see what’s happening not in the West Bank
33:42
look what’s going on in Janine look what’s going on in Hebron and definitely
33:47
with the genocide in Gaza with the amount of killing with the annihilation
33:54
with the starvation
34:00
n i mean this this is uh it’s it’s incredible you know to hear this and it’s very it’s
34:06
emotional um but I wanted to ask you know on on you you were talking about
34:11
the babies and the and all these dead babies uh the these images that I remember seeing the image of the I think
34:18
it was a five Monon old baby that they the Jerusalem Post or somebody made a whole thing about this was fake it was a
34:25
doll uh if you remember that and then on the other hand there was the case of the
34:31
the the so-called beheaded babies on October 7th that made it all the way to Biden’s speech and to all the American
34:38
Press and everything and so you have these very Stark things you know all these babies and children being killed
34:44
by the hundreds and by the thousands and the image came as oh no this is this is a fake doll that wasn’t even true and so
34:50
therefore I me obviously as you’re saying kind of negating not just I mean the the the very life and the idea that
34:58
these parents were holding this baby and the grandparents were holding this baby uh because I think the parents were
35:03
killed as well uh their their grief or or whatever it is that they’re feeling also gets negated in that but on the
35:09
other hand it goes all the way up even after it was proven to be fake this business of the beheaded babies it goes
35:15
all the way up to the president not once but more than once and and in his speech of the 100 days uh you know you you’ve
35:23
talked about obviously your thing about unch childing can can you explain expl that a bit more to to our to our
35:29
listeners and and and these the way in which these two babies have been
35:34
represented well let me let me start by the production of stories to justify
35:41
violence number one they don’t need to just to to produce stories but they needed in this case to produce more
35:48
stories of horror to to frame Palestinians as those you know Savages
35:54
and and don’t misunderstand me anybody you know my reaction to the stories on
36:00
on October 7th were horrify I just I was talking to all my friends saying not in
36:06
my name I will never allow anybody to touch a baby to touch to kidnap a child
36:11
to rape a woman this is not in my name and I will never accept it as as a as a
36:17
Palestinian because all our lives we fought for the dignity for life for for
36:24
for the the wholeness of of a human and not the opposite so not in my name and
36:29
nobody can do it in my name yeah but uh the production of those stories to
36:36
produce fear to fear us more to kill us more to to reach a space whereby Not
36:43
only kabil over
36:55
killabilly of soldiers today today there was a post by a soldier you know you you feel so you ask
37:04
yourself what is going on what is going on like the way they
37:10
talk about Palestinians they said it Human animals
37:15
flat in Gaza they said it they said it openly and Lies Over Lies We I don’t
37:21
believe any of them I do not it’s very clear that they’re lying yeah it it it
37:28
just it just feels so painful that no matter what we say you can produce
37:34
whatever you want in terms of evidence proofs documentations and of course what
37:40
goes on today in Gaza is destroying all the evidence is to destroy it but you know
37:47
since 1948 they were destroying everything I I grew up in hia I was born
37:52
in haa and every time we passed by the graveyard of my my TAA my grandma there
37:59
was a building and my dad always told me Baba remember this is where your grandma
38:04
is buried the fact that there is a big building and all of a sudden it’s a nice area doesn’t mean that she doesn’t exist
38:11
so it’s over our dead bodies yeah but but you know in in the
38:18
case of babies of course all the world will will listen to the to the Zionist entity and Zionism was done in VI with
38:27
violence yeah it was it was it was the the the this
38:33
Euro you know um it’s it’s this Western violent that came here and all of a
38:40
sudden is destroying everything because we really we lived together we had
38:45
neighbor Bears Baba and Mama my my mom and dad you know and and so on Jews
38:52
Muslims Christians they were they were together it’s not a problem of of the
38:57
the indigenous Jews here it’s the problem of the Europeans that came with the Zionist uh project that is so
39:04
violent that this settler Colonial that is about the Eraser and the logic is
39:10
totally different it’s about judaizing everything and all of a sudden the Bible is the answer and mind you you know
39:17
they’re um they’re secular but God gave them the land yeah which is nothing has
39:23
to make sense nothing so so babies are used and the the issue what I’m saying
39:31
in unch childing number one unchild came from the voices of Palestinians that
39:37
kept on saying what our kids are not kids so there is what what I’m what I’m
39:43
saying in in my work as a critical childhood studies scholar is that
39:48
children are a capital in the hands of the States you know in international relation there’s a scholar that writes
39:55
who’s Afraid from children Helen brookers who’s Afraid from children yes they are afraid from our
40:02
children because our children are the future are the power are the love are the source of joy to to us you know I’m
40:09
I’m a mama and I’m a grandma they’re they’re everything they’re the apple of my eyes my kids and listen I will fight
40:15
everybody if someone will come that close to my kids it’s so normal no so so
40:21
the childhood is a capital in the hands of the state and unch childing
40:27
is is like turning them into nobody’s again again the element of ontology and
40:33
unch childing is really aligned with this Opera with with and operated along
40:39
this Twisted logic of necropolitics whereby the present and historical
40:45
realities of who had died in the past who gets to live in the present who is
40:51
left to die now is is exactly where I go so unch childing sheds the light on on
40:58
the effect of racial violence against the Palestinian of settler colonialism
41:03
against the Palestinian and of course on the intimate lives of children and what
41:09
I say in my work on unch childing and look at how when it came to their kids
41:16
they are hyper
41:25
visibilization you see that unch childing is operated profoundly through
41:30
the disruption of the global perception of childhood and of the intimate here
41:37
that is embodied in a biopolitics and it’s so much visceral as
41:44
well as Global as we see it because there is silence there is negligence
41:49
there is lack of intervention there’s an inaction to the unchild so you have the
41:55
wounding that everybody can see it you know if you talk to uh to my colleague
42:01
and friend dran abti from Gaza and we work together because I interviewed the
42:06
kids that participated in the march of return and Gan operated on them yeah now
42:12
if you talk to him now he explains clearly that a child who’s wounded today
42:18
with like an imputation he needs 12 operations to be able to function as an
42:23
adult do you understand we’re talking about 37 kids with imputations in Gaza
42:29
today and these are the counted let alone other kind of 37,000 do you mean
42:35
37,000 yeah yeah yeah so so 12 operations who would be able to fund
42:41
those operations who will be able to fund those operations so you you ask
42:47
those questions and you wonder you know I’m I’m really I’m telling you this is why I’m in the ashl
42:54
I feel that we as Palestinians and as a Palestinian feminist today when I see
43:01
the humiliation and the IM masculation of men in in in Gaza putting them all in
43:09
tracks the and you know today today Bennett was interviewed and he said oh we interrogated 3,000 men and they’re
43:16
still in Gaza we’re not bringing them to you you you hear the amount so they way
43:23
have past Abu and and of course using dogs just listen to the
43:28
testimonies and and using torture and and and causing
43:33
major problems so you wonder where where are we going and where is this world
43:39
going NAD on on that point that what what doesn’t make any sense I mean to to those of us who are outside of Palestine
43:47
is that this catalog of horror that’s documented that that you see and that they talk about openly and yet the
43:54
narrative that is always and K refer to this already with the Biden talking about the beheaded babies and the
43:59
October 7th uh uh Stories the about the babies and so on and so forth what what
44:06
um what always comes out and you have experience of this how how do you respond or how do you deal with the fact
44:13
that they that both Israelis and their supporters in the west constantly refer to themselves as victims in the face of
44:21
this mountain of evidence that you you also experience firsthand and that you document and that you work with I mean
44:27
I’m just just something doesn’t make any sense is it is it and you know you’re also you know how how do we make sense
44:33
of that how do you respond and because you also live and interact with with many of these people is it how do they
44:39
not see what’s going on or is it do they do they not care is it denial is it
44:45
something else I don’t and then we can I want to get to the UN report and K I know wants to ask you about the UN
44:50
report I I have a question too okay okay but so do you see what I’m saying and I mean it’s it’s a catalog of horror that
44:57
is so obvious to any person who has eyes to see and ears to hear and yet the narrative here is that they are the
45:03
victims in fact now actually let me let me add to usama’s question so the flip side of his question in a way so when
45:10
you were describing the horror right and we’ve all seen these atrocious Israeli soldier videos of you know where they’re
45:16
they’re they’re laughing about what they’re doing I mean for them it seems to be a source of amusement that they can we’ve SE like there’s one where
45:23
there they show people urinating on the bodes of dead Palestinians for example right and you had another similar story
45:29
parading women’s under paring the thing with the women’s underwear which there’s a there’s a kind of this clearly but but
45:35
the business with the with the destruction of bodies and this Obsession that the Israelis have with bodies and with as you say holding children’s
45:42
bodies you know long after their dead just just to abuse families there’s
45:47
something and then the business with the ash also I mean part of what’s in a very strange way it’s sort of like we you
45:54
know remember the beginning of fuko’s discipline and punish like we’ve it’s like there’s a there’s a really weird
46:00
18th century mentality there you know the beginning of Fuko where he talks about the the reeside and how he was
46:07
pulled in pieces like there’s this thing about now you’re going to see the power of the king exercised on this body the
46:14
king can pull the body apart the Israelis are doing something else like that but of course it’s with high-tech
46:19
weaponry and we’re no longer in 1745 or whatever we’re in 2024 so there there’s
46:26
there’s a really weird way in which the Israelis seem to be living in a 17th and
46:32
18th century settler Colonial mentality while using high-tech and broadcasting this to the world and then we have
46:38
osama’s question about but the West is sort of mind you it’s the official because I think the popular level of the
46:44
West understands now it’s the but the elite the official level is all about oh we must now see what happened again yet
46:51
another recycled story about October 7th using the same warn out evidence that no
46:56
that has zero credibility at this point also that’s and or Biden saying as Kim said you know I’ve seen the pictures of
47:03
the 40 beheaded babies I you didn’t see anything those there is that there were no such babies and there were no photographs but there’s this incredible
47:10
kind of attention to let’s talk about Israeli suffering and Israeli this and Israeli that whereas this mountain of
47:16
evidence that they themselves are recording on Tik Tok and YouTube and everywhere else showing their exploits
47:23
there’s a kind of it’s like we’re we all feel sort of schizophrenic as we there’s these two different realities that seem
47:30
to be in in commensurate with one another and I yeah just to sorry that’s a rambling question but to go back to
47:35
what AMA was saying too
47:41
um listen these are tough questions but I must tell you this is the ideology
47:47
it’s not I’m I’m I cannot argue with people
47:52
feeling victims I don’t argue with emotions I if you feel afraid if you feel a
47:59
victim if you feel whatever I will respect it
48:04
but there’s a clear policy here number one they
48:10
can they can argue that they’re the victims and they can cause the
48:16
victimization and wounding and killing and continue to to because the global
48:23
Community is allowing them it’s not because only because they’re V victims
48:31
because you know those that are around me uh that are working on victimology
48:37
I’m a victimologist see I started my career as a victimologist but there is a clear
48:45
policy and the policy is mowing the lawn
48:51
flattening judaizing getting rid of the pal
48:57
Palestinians if if in 1948 it was with their politics of look
49:03
listen my two my my Baba and Mama my dad and my mom were defined legally as
49:11
infiltrators my dad was shot and then he came back and then he shot was shot and
49:16
my mom was hiding in in a graveyard and they caught her and they threw her back
49:22
to Southern Lebanon and she managed to come
49:27
back so I don’t know who is the victim here and I’m not fighting over victimization we’re not victims we’re
49:34
not victims and we’re not even survivors we are defying and resisting this this
49:40
regime but there is a clear necro capitalist regime in Zionism and this necro it’s it’s power
49:48
because they can’t punish because they have the power of the world not because they are powerful
49:54
no no not because they are powerful and I think that we have we have seen that
50:00
yeah but you know I I kind of I’m looking at at at the
50:07
situation in Jerusalem in Gaza in in what goes on
50:13
and I see that all you know that that the the the World Acceptance of the
50:20
power of this place is is is is the is what is giving them the power so it is
50:27
the fuk it is what I see again that it’s a necr capitalist settler Colonial
50:35
regime that is utilizing every Power they are getting from different places
50:42
to distort the minds of of of the of the world and of
50:48
the colonized yeah so they’re like always running after us in Million Ways
50:54
and that you know that regime that necro capitalist regime is is you know is is
51:01
giving an impunity and Immunity to the
51:06
colonizer so if you think about the ruins that we’re seeing today in
51:12
Gaza I I I I go to Fanon about the psychic ruins that are common usage in
51:19
colonial violence we’ve seen it all the time you know fenon argued that the
51:25
damage to the person to the psychic to this is and but we he insists on the
51:31
Romans I take it to a new place when I look at the the sist policy I take it to
51:38
a new place why are they that busy with graveyards did you see how many graveyards were destroyed in in Gaza 17
51:45
graveyards in one shot why are they busy in universities all the
51:51
universities why are they shooting and extra judicial killing of Educators do
51:57
you understand what will this do to our society I I was walking today back home
52:04
and asking myself how would I look at myself in 10 years when I’m asking
52:10
myself what was I doing during the genocide what was I doing during the genocide this is where
52:18
I’m I’m I’m I’m I’m thinking that they are the victims that something bad happened in
52:25
October 7th I’m not saying no that it was cruel I’m not saying no
52:31
but what I’m seeing today in Gaza after so many month is not only cruelty is not
52:37
only brutality is not only genocide it’s something that the world is accepting
52:42
and is giving them the power to continue yeah and um it’s mowing the lawn there
52:50
they said it they continue you listen if you if you go to Bennett he had a plan
52:56
and the plan is being um is being used and I don’t know I I don’t know like to
53:03
to think to think about graveyards is to think that this is what they want to see
53:08
in Palestine they want to see ashl and what I see is what we’re doing is
53:16
bringing those ashl Back to Life by talking about it writing about it and
53:22
telling everybody that have that is writing yes in slavery in indigenous
53:29
studies in this we talk about the flesh we theorize about the flesh but
53:35
Palestine and I NAD as a criminologist I’m putting at the center the scattered
53:41
body parts the the the body bags and the dead bodies the burned bodies this is
53:47
the center today and if the world cannot see it I don’t know how how can I keep
53:53
the hope you know really I don’t why NAD sorry to but you you mentioned earlier I
53:59
mean you you were you’ve been talking about power and you know on the one hand you were talking about the very visible
54:06
kind of annihilation the assassination of journalists so they can’t document what’s going on the assassination of all
54:13
the Educators University people School teachers Etc so that nobody can learn
54:18
and going forward the all the healthc Care people all the doctors all of this kind of very systematic eral and very
54:26
systematic Annihilation so that when this this Infamous day after comes there’s there’s there’s there’s nobody
54:32
to kind of be there and the day after except for victims as they will be framed in the humanitarian world right
54:38
they’ll be okay send some Aid and maybe we give unaa maybe we don’t give unir maybe UNICEF comes in maybe this NGO
54:45
maybe the Germans will send some money and food and we we’ll feel grateful the Americans will ship some more uh you
54:51
know the food or whatever and this kind of thing but on the other hand you I I think if I heard you correctly you also
54:58
talked about you said that they were not powerful and and and I’m I’m curious
55:04
about that because I’m in Lebanon now and the way in which I think at least
55:11
some people here some of us perceive the Israelis is that they’re not powerful so
55:16
they they talk a big game yes they can yeah they can come and they can destroy Lebanon they can destroy they can hit they can okay they’re they’re very good
55:23
at that I mean we’ll give them the they’re excellent at destroying from the air but the sense of you know after
55:30
let’s say the 2006 War here and then onwards the sense of this Israeli machine was punctured psychologically it
55:37
was punctured they be they went from When We Were Young oh they’re so incredible and you know the mad and you
55:42
know everything was so scary everything they do is so amazing to the sense of no these people are defeatable these people
55:50
are weak in their in their in their way and there’s a lot of things that were dispelled and and you know here we are
55:56
150 days into a genocide and they still haven’t frankly achieved their objectives I mean with all the Geno with
56:03
all this this beyond belief damage and destruction and people dying and and
56:08
being killed and body parts as you’re saying and children and babies there’s a sense of it’s it’s an expression of not
56:15
being powerful at the same time so could you explain a little bit more about that because I’m very curious listen that’s
56:22
exactly what I’m I’m saying yes they have power and the power is coming not
56:28
from them they are not powerful I I’m convinced and like this is the
56:34
discussion our I agree I agree morning discussion in this place like uh with my
56:40
better half it’s the morning discussion they are not because if I walk in the
56:46
street and I speak Arabic you will see them like this and they should be afraid and they
56:55
should be afraid because criminals are always afraid they cannot dispossess my
57:00
land they cannot displace my people they cannot kill and not be afraid so they
57:05
better be afraid and and this is why they are afraid because they cannot look at as in our phase listen it’s it’s the
57:15
power they have is the power that the global Community is giving
57:20
them morally bankruptcy
57:26
bankruptcy maybe once Israel had a moral base not anymore this war on Gaza have
57:34
really all the masks have fallen and and no today also military we know that they
57:41
are not as strong as others right and and to me you know and I’ve I’ve known
57:48
that I’ve known that I was always you know this is the story of people that walk around the old city with me and
57:55
they always tell me yeah canra you’re not afraid Habi why should I be afraid the fact that they are carrying so many
58:02
guns and so many rifles tells you it’s an indication of their fear not because
58:07
they’re afraid of me no no not because they’re afraid of me you know I’ll I’ll give you one
58:14
example you go to uh the um an area here in Jerusalem
58:20
and you see a high number of children arrested there’s a high child arrest a topic I write about and I I cover and
58:29
and a high rate and then all of a sudden the Israeli scholar are saying you can listen we need to discuss this because
58:36
we’re afraid from their um stones and throwing and they no no no no Habibi
58:42
leave the place the kid won’t throw a stone the stone is telling you I refuse
58:48
to accept humiliation as part of my daily life I refuse to see my teacher
58:54
being humil humiliated so read it differently what I’m asking us to do is
59:00
to think otherwise to think with from us here from what we experience from the
59:07
mandane from the daily from the act of of ab in gazi who is saying who who was
59:14
talking about thei and his analysis thei stood with Palestinians more than the
59:21
Arab countries because the kui he can eat it and that while the Arab countries are not
59:26
standing with but the problem is today to catch to go and gather kui you need
59:32
to go to the bord so you might be killed for the so AB is talking about the I
59:38
think that power is what can I tell you power is
59:44
corruption extreme power corrupt extremely Israel is being is given lots of power
59:51
and and the article that was published this week New York Times by U an
1:00:00
Israeli leftist uh Grossman about what goes on I’m like I
1:00:07
flipped in my chair I’m like if if he can’t see
1:00:13
us or hear or understand the over 75
1:00:19
years of agonies and then the New York Times is producing it and giving him a stage
1:00:26
where others cannot because I want to write about ashla I really want to Stage
1:00:32
Ash and our our scattered dead bodies in plastic bags that are being reassembled
1:00:38
to create life and to create the wholeness of Palestinians and no they cannot change anything the fact that
1:00:45
they have power they have no power the father with the plastic bags is telling
1:00:50
no these are hadu and hadu is a statement that the wholeness of
1:00:57
Palestine cannot be scattered to ashl the opposite so yes it might sound I
1:01:03
might sound to you a bit um uh um not not logical but you know in in in
1:01:11
rationality doesn’t work in colonial context NAD on on that I mean you are
1:01:17
logical of course and it’s it is you’re you’re giving incredible testimony and and witness but and and the the answer
1:01:23
you gave to the question of when I asked you about when the the oppressors
1:01:29
constantly talk of themselves as victims and you said you you I want to push back a little bit on this point and you said
1:01:35
that you you can’t argue correctly you can’t one can’t argue with feelings people feel something it’s TR you can’t
1:01:40
say they don’t feel it they do feel it but on the other hand how how do you how do you how do you I mean Beyond saying
1:01:47
you acknowledge feelings but isn’t the whole point of their Narrative of being victims precisely what
1:01:55
enables the the the the the the the refusal to accept Palestinian Humanity
1:02:01
the refusal to accept uh the the 75 years that precedes October 7th the the
1:02:07
the the refusal to accept the Palestinian wholeness isn’t so I don’t understand when you say you can’t argue
1:02:14
with their feelings but but their discourse of victimization is precisely what then leads into into this this this
1:02:21
thing so I’m just trying to understand explain to us take you to some to some um theorization in
1:02:28
criminology on on techniques of neutralization but I’ll start by saying
1:02:33
culturally culturally uh this is what they sell
1:02:39
this is what they teach this is what they educate so not that they believe
1:02:44
that they are victims but this is how the the the curriculum at school we are
1:02:51
victims we are victims if you look at the the every feast and every single thing it’s about a war with someone
1:02:58
because they are the victim so it’s it’s this cultural repor that is really being
1:03:04
repeated and repeated and repeated so and this is why when I teach Israeli
1:03:10
students I do not blame them or argue with with their feelings because this is
1:03:16
what they were being um fed all their lives uh contrary to this you know I was
1:03:23
I was raised as a Palestinian
1:03:29
woman keep your head up with all the the the agonies and stories and daily
1:03:36
hardships that we’re facing yeah rasim my head is raised up this is how I was
1:03:44
raised so I think that it’s also cultural but let me take you to one of
1:03:50
the theories in criminology and talks about techniques of neutralization when a criminal commits a crime it’s either I
1:03:57
didn’t do it it was by mistake they pushed me to do it it’s all those Techni
1:04:03
techniques of neutralization that they will continue using but they are criminals let us stay
1:04:10
there whatever they’re saying to neutralize the effect of their crime we
1:04:16
can read it we can analyze it they want to say I’m the victim they want to say I did not mean it they want to say I was
1:04:23
afraid they they can say whatever they want this is one thing the other thing is the amount of
1:04:31
criminality and atrocities and brutality and necropolitics against Palestinians
1:04:37
is nonnegotiable everybody can see it including Biden
1:04:44
everyone can see it so so it’s not it’s not that I’m arguing with their
1:04:50
techniques of neutralization at all they can continue using it you know you
1:04:55
remind me of one of my colleagues who’s like he keeps on asking why you know why
1:05:01
do I think I’m um when I talk about Palestine that I’m like uh uh saying it
1:05:08
in in Pride that you know I’m I’m Palestinian and um and and his his
1:05:14
argument is that those Palestinians those terrorists those habbi we’re not
1:05:20
terrorists we are not terrorist you cannot you can’t frame us in this
1:05:25
islamophobic mentality racialized Colonial mentality because this is what
1:05:31
colonialists have always done Fon told us that the colonizer perceived the
1:05:37
colonized in theological terms yeah and and this is why they put them in ban in
1:05:43
spaces and they’re afraid so in haa we were all put in wed Nas to make sure
1:05:49
that uh the Palestinian animalized others are kept kept in one place but it
1:05:55
doesn’t mean and they can stay as much as they want they are the victims and
1:06:02
listen again I don’t argue with what happened in the Holocaust it’s horrible it’s unacceptable it’s genocidal it’s
1:06:09
something that I look at I learn from I look at books on testimonies from people
1:06:15
who who survived uh the holocost and I I have lots of you know respect to those
1:06:23
with witnessing this is not this is Palestine by the way but at the same
1:06:30
time this these cultural beliefs that are you know uh uh sugarcoated with
1:06:38
other stories sometimes biblical sometimes the netanyahu’s analysis or the Bang’s
1:06:46
analysis is we need to look at them as criminals and we need to analyze them from a criminal perspective that’s this
1:06:53
is how I see it as NAD and it’s not dehumanizing them at
1:07:00
all it just realizing we are dealing with vicious criminals and they should
1:07:08
really somebody should stop them and to to me if you ask me today the only way
1:07:13
is a global political movement that will stop them economic I don’t know what I’m I’m
1:07:21
not a politician but I’m I I feel that this is where we should go Nat I wanted to ask um I I think
1:07:29
we’ll probably I want to get to the October 7th reports but before that I have one last question which is you
1:07:35
you’ve been talking about T and the the body parts that that you you know have
1:07:40
have expressed so so vividly in this sense but I mean politically the oso
1:07:48
created this in in the political body of of of Palestine through the PLO through
1:07:53
this division through the West Bank and Gaza and area a and area B and area C and I don’t know what all all these The
1:07:58
Armenian quarter the you know all these different things within Jerusalem it’s all divided it’s
1:08:04
all political body parts let’s say and so the question you know okay
1:08:11
colonialism setto colonialism genocidal racial hierarchy all this stuff but
1:08:16
where is the the Palestinian Authority where is the PLO where are the the those
1:08:24
I don’t mean people but the the authorities the political bodies that uh
1:08:30
at least I don’t hear much and maybe they are but I don’t see I don’t hear I
1:08:36
don’t see a voice I don’t see mm abas I don’t see these people coming out on a
1:08:41
daily basis and saying something um so where are they and and what about the Arab Islamic World
1:08:48
Egypt Gulf the rest of the Islamic world
1:08:54
where where are they in all of this listen you’re you’re talking uh you’re
1:09:00
talking to me and uh and I will you’ll never hear me um defending Mahmud Abbas
1:09:06
or or or I think that they’re not doing enough I think that they are uh doing a
1:09:15
major damage really major damage I want them out I really want this is if you’ll
1:09:21
ask me I’ve done that million times I’ve written I’ve written petitions I’ve I’ve only lately I I I
1:09:30
signed a letter asking for the reform of the PLO I think we’re not doing enough I think that the Palestinian Authority is
1:09:37
functioning like H you know if you’ll ask me like belad like um municipality
1:09:43
it’s good to to collect the trash and to offer police services and to make sure
1:09:49
that the streets are okay but the problem is that it’s it’s creating a
1:09:55
major damage to us Palestinians and with with with a leadership that is not aware of of the
1:10:02
Matrix of power of the global Matrix of power they are causing they are wounding
1:10:10
the already wounded Ash this is how I see it today and and I really think that
1:10:17
and and I think that your point is is is well taken that this is why I think about as
1:10:24
today because I feel that centering the shattered flesh here that is maintained
1:10:33
by the the PA and by the way they function is a major problem and that’s
1:10:38
our responsibility yeah because I feel that here we need to to to to push them
1:10:45
towards thinking otherwise again if we if we don’t uh if
1:10:52
we don’t re form the PLO today if we don’t work against this onto racial
1:10:59
economy if we don’t work against the as the continuous ashl because it is it is
1:11:06
not only not only Jerusalem come look at Jerusalem it’s a it’s a catastrophe what
1:11:12
goes on look at the West Bank and and think about a simple case of of somebody
1:11:19
a woman that is calling the police in area C the the police the Palestinian police needs to get the approval of the
1:11:25
Israeli police to be able to come help a woman who is abused in in ay it’s you
1:11:31
know in in houses here in N waji the bathroom is in area B and the house is
1:11:36
in and the bedroom is in this is the situation and this is the PA and they are responsible they they put us in the
1:11:43
situation and and the settler Colonial regime is working on ash geographical
1:11:49
Ash of course and and
1:11:55
it’s I might sound a bit but my feminist analysis it’s so it’s so sexual it’s so
1:12:03
gendered that really dispersal that dismemberment it’s part of the uprooting
1:12:09
our work is to reassemble the dismembered exactly like the father with the plastic bags he claimed again
1:12:18
hadu these are my kids so yes area a area B area C
1:12:24
uh Jerusalem occupied Jerusalem nasara Gaza these are this is
1:12:31
what this is my my space this is my nation we need to put it together and
1:12:38
and yes you know Palestinians in in in refugee camps in in in Jordan in Syria
1:12:45
in in Lebanon this is all it’s part of the ash it’s part of the this is why all
1:12:52
I see is is I know I’m I’m I’m over overemphasizing and centering the but to
1:12:59
be honest you know politically I’m there criminologically I’m there and psychoanalytically I’m there because
1:13:06
there is no way you can deal with such a wound without number one acknowledging
1:13:14
that there is a here there is uprooting there is dismemberment there is no other
1:13:21
way so it’s judaization it’s Israel isation but how
1:13:27
but the question remains why the world is allowing this and this is really my
1:13:37
question just just to follow up on this thing the the Arab Islamic
1:13:42
world it’s also part of the Arab Islamic World well Arab Islamic word is a big
1:13:48
failure I I just told you about AB in Gaza who said that yeah of course yeah
1:13:54
you think that it’s easy to know today that you know I don’t want to give
1:14:01
more examples about the failure of of the Arab countries I always say I’m I’m
1:14:06
a very proud Palestinian I don’t want to be called Arab because like when you think about
1:14:12
it and you think about the failure you think about the people that are dying in in On the Border in Egypt you
1:14:19
think about the fact that the Arab countries are normalizing and and having relationship and the only ples that are
1:14:26
leaving from from Boron is is is the uh
1:14:32
Arab Arab aircrafts this is like this is like Madness this is insanity this is
1:14:38
Major it’s it’s additional wounding to the already scattered flesh of the
1:14:44
Palestinian but are Palestinians resp there are Palestinians Yen there are Lebanese pales yemenis Iraqis I mean
1:14:52
there are a lot of Arab of course I mean we’re proud to be Arab I mean be I know you are as well obviously but no I mean
1:14:59
you mean Arab State you mean official Arab states I’m talking about the Arab states and not the Arab people the
1:15:05
moment I Ste into the love it’s it’s the states and not the people because the Arab people are I know their heart is is
1:15:13
in Palestine the problem is the leadership exactly like the PA’s leadership exactly like the PA
1:15:20
leadership and and you ask million questions and I understand but then when I look at at for example bam zumot in in
1:15:29
in the UK and the amazing work he’s doing there to try to to bring together
1:15:35
and to raise and to discuss the Palestinian should he is part of the P so you ask your question why what is
1:15:41
going on so we need really to also do some internal work and um but at this
1:15:48
point we need to stop the genocide immediately like and and uh and and to
1:15:54
think it and to think about it not not in previous uh terms but really in
1:16:01
centering the shattered flesh of the Palestinian because this is where it allows me to develop a practice of being
1:16:10
against the ENT racial nonbeing yeah because again you know theoretically I
1:16:18
I’m I’m thinking about M’s work where he talks about you know the language the
1:16:24
culture the idea the flesh that is uh that doesn’t mean anything in in in the
1:16:32
in specific places and when you look at at us here in Palestine and you look at
1:16:38
Gaza and you look at um Dr gassan standing there trying Shell
1:16:45
Shocked to explain among the ashla with all the doctors H in the hospital you
1:16:51
wonder you know the people people are defying are resisting are speaking back
1:16:57
Samar is talking to her dog to her cat just to say you know don’t eat my ash so
1:17:03
I don’t know when would the world wake up and tell this Zionist movement and
1:17:10
yes it’s time to abolish Zionism this is where I’m going today just abolish Zionism Well it can’t continue it cannot
1:17:18
it’s criminal it’s criminal only by abolishing Z we can continue this is
1:17:24
what I see NAD um I want to ask maybe a final question which is on this report that
1:17:31
came out on the October 7th report that the UN just put out uh on the question
1:17:37
of the rape and the the you know the sexual violence now I I want to ask you as a as a as a Palestinian feminist
1:17:44
who’s there there’s a lot of there’s been a lot of you know criticism of this report
1:17:50
and the fact that it’s still as far as I know know still relies almost entirely on Israeli official sources with almost
1:17:58
no actual eyewitnesses and yet of course if one were to express this kind of thing to
1:18:04
say even to just to say that on social media or anything else one is open to attack for being against women and
1:18:10
against uh you know so how how how how how do you read that and how do you compare that to the absolute Silence of
1:18:18
all the other reports and all the documented rigorously documented reports on sexual violence let alone violence
1:18:24
sexual violence towards Palestinian men and women and and girls and
1:18:29
boys well you know it’s it’s very telling the way I read it I read it as
1:18:37
shaming the state of Israel because they’re using women’s bodies women’s
1:18:44
sexuality and women’s intimate life to play with it in
1:18:50
political terms now if if erh rapes abuses sexual abuses gang rapes it
1:18:59
always happened in war times it always happened we know of my my book on
1:19:05
militarization and violence against women covers this topic and and we know
1:19:10
that the state of Israel 1948 you know there is a report for example in in nin
1:19:17
exactly that specific place where October 7 started there was a case of a
1:19:22
bedwin woman a bedwin young girl that was not only you know there is a
1:19:28
documentation that I managed to get from the from the archive whereby Boran
1:19:34
learned about the case and the captain the the the military officer asked his
1:19:40
his um the soldiers what do you want to do with the with the bedwin woman H do
1:19:46
you want us to kill her or do you want us to rape her and the answer was L fot L fot to her that was this is
1:19:53
something that I’ve written about and in my book on unch childing it opens up the chapter on on on the nakab area abuses
1:20:02
and sexual abuses happen and it shouldn’t happen and I will never approve it not to not to Israelis nor to
1:20:09
Palestinians and not in my name the reports sometimes can get testimonies
1:20:16
some other times cannot get testimonies the issue is that is Israel allowing
1:20:21
proper collection of evidence plus you know personally as a feminist I do not I
1:20:26
don’t go and interrogate the rape victims if a woman said she was raped I
1:20:32
will believe her I do not need evidence and I don’t want to go check facts to be
1:20:37
honest this is my opinion the issue is that even that we don’t have we don’t
1:20:43
see women coming out and saying what happened so women’s bodies are being
1:20:49
used as political weapons if it happens not in my my name if it didn’t happen
1:20:54
it’s shame on the state to use women’s bodies and sexuality to promote political agendas to promote further
1:21:02
dispossession of land to promote further killing to promote abuse and rape and
1:21:08
and and and you know keep in mind that the Rapability of the Palestinian based on
1:21:15
the Zionist agenda is hard at work hard at work in so many ways and I’ve again
1:21:21
have written about that and the State Crime that is sexualized and gender right is there so we need to we need to
1:21:30
number one remember this is a very dishonest to come to say the the state
1:21:37
they will use everything to further kill it’s a killing machine and it’s a necro
1:21:45
political regime that can survive only on the Eraser of Palestinians and only
1:21:53
when they will stop this and they will acknowledge what they’re doing we can start talking like but not to criminals
1:22:01
criminals will will should be punished at this point so I don’t know what to
1:22:07
tell you else about you know when I look at the pictures at the photos of soldiers today getting into Palestinian
1:22:13
homes using the lerie playing with it using you and and laughing and putting
1:22:18
it on tanks and putting it on rifles what is it what is this if it’s not
1:22:23
sexual abuse when you see the way they’re treating men undressing them
1:22:28
keeping them with nothing using that what is it if it’s not sexual abuse so
1:22:34
using dogs exactly like what happened in Abu the body of the Palestinian the
1:22:39
living body the dead body the cut to Pieces body are all capital in the hands
1:22:46
of this Zionist entity and of course they will use any lie they started with
1:22:51
babies they continued with rap they will continue with million other lies every day with another story we stopped
1:22:57
believing them I hope that the world will stop believing them and if things like this happened not in my name I will
1:23:03
never approve it Adela thank you and I think we we’re going to wrap now I mean
1:23:09
we’ve taken up your time um you know in this extraordinary moment for you and
1:23:14
for all Palestinians um I guess the last question we want to ask as as a way of
1:23:19
wrapping is is give given what you’ve been saying that the the entire world
1:23:25
has not listened and has not yet listened and and refuses to listen to Palestinians given the overwhelming
1:23:32
mountain of evidence our question to you and and is why do you continue to write
1:23:39
why do you continue to speak and for whom wait sorry can I just sorry just no I know but just to add because it’s an
1:23:45
important question because but you just said it too I want to just say it’s not that the world is not listening the
1:23:52
world is listening I mean Aaron Bushnell last week set himself on fire outside
1:23:57
the Zionist Embassy in Washington people are protesting across the entire world
1:24:02
Ordinary People are listening and they’re doing what ordinary people can do it’s the states it’s the it’s the I
1:24:10
don’t want to use epithets here it’s the awful Western States above all you know
1:24:16
America right with it with its European entails as well but I mean so it’s not I would say it’s not the world isn’t doing
1:24:23
well n earlier I say that in response to NAD too people are responding people are
1:24:29
doing incredible things in the US and in Europe and of course across the Arab world and the third world too it’s these
1:24:36
shitty states that are not doing the right thing we have to yeah n the last
1:24:41
word is yours yeah well I I think that yes effective
1:24:47
solidarity that comes uh you know from the the streets of of London of New York
1:24:53
of Los Angeles of of India of of you know million places in in the world is
1:25:01
uh is very very very very important and this is the only way we can affect and
1:25:07
change the The Matrix of power but I continue to write AMA because this is
1:25:13
Palestine Hab this is Palestine Palestine you know I I told kids in silan the other day they kept on saying
1:25:20
everybody is dying everybody is dying and we gathered and I asked them to draw and then I and I asked mother to bake
1:25:27
something and I asked father to tell the stories and we were together and then when they said dead death and death I
1:25:33
said no no no no we’re here we’re crying we’re screaming we’re laughing we’re drawing we’re hugging we’re talking
1:25:40
we’re gathering this is life and we continue to live and I ride because it’s
1:25:45
life I speak because it’s life it’s love it’s collectivity it’s togetherness this
1:25:51
is what keeps me moving and there is so much love in Palestine with all the hardships with all the hardships this
1:25:59
and love is a practice of freedom I hope that one day we will be able uh to be
1:26:04
free and yeah what can I tell you free Palestine is what I hope to see and we
1:26:10
can I continue to write and I continue to speak because this is what I know how to do well and I believe in our strength
1:26:17
and our power and our togetherness and our our hugging and kissing and thinking
1:26:23
together and I also believe in in s in the effective solidarity around the world because that effective solidarity
1:26:31
these voices that are coming from all around the world uh whether from South Africa that is really opened my heart
1:26:39
and you know just to see the case in the icj is just amazing it’s so important
1:26:44
this is what gave us some hope and Futurity so I want to believe in this
1:26:50
hope and in US you know talking and speaking and writing and thinking together and loving
1:26:57
each other that’s what I see in Palestine so n thank you with that
1:27:02
message of love and hope uh thank you so much for your time and honestly for all your witness and for all the work that
1:27:08
you do on the ground in Palestine uh for Palestinians first and foremost but also
1:27:14
for for all of humanity in a sense so thank you so much thank you thank you so
1:27:20
much okay he guys that was an extraordinary session with nadir her testimony was extraordinary her the
1:27:27
details the The Unbelievable levels of Cruelty that she documents and yet at
1:27:33
the at the end her her extraordinary ability to maintain a sense of of
1:27:40
defiance of hope uh and as she ended with love and so what did you what did
1:27:46
two of you make of it Kim what did you think yeah I agree I thought it was her testimonies were were were unbelievable
1:27:53
I mean incredibly moving incredibly difficult to to digest I mean still it’s
1:27:59
very very difficult to digest all these kinds of stories and the ASL the body parts uh you know moving from talking
1:28:06
about uh you know babies and children and kids and unch childing and all of these these theoretical and practical
1:28:12
things that she deals with you know in individually and collectively and now
1:28:18
you know moving to this business of body parts it’s it’s really it’s incredibly moving um and I I I very much kind of
1:28:28
liked what she was talking about in in framing all of this despite all of this I was expecting her to say yeah you know
1:28:34
we’re victims and then she comes says no despite all this I hate the idea of talking about victimhood we’re not
1:28:40
victims and uh you know the idea of power and this this notion of different
1:28:46
different nuances of what power is and I had agreed with her there and I and I still I I really believe very
1:28:52
strongly that I I see the Israelis as not powerful they’re powerful militarily
1:28:57
you know with American Support politically they can blow up places they can kill people yeah sure they can do
1:29:02
all this but fundamentally they’re they’re a kind of cowardly you know group of of thugs
1:29:10
that’s how I you know so and I love the idea it’s apparatus State yeah the state
1:29:16
and apparatus and soldiers soldiers army and everybody who supports them it’s just you know and said it you know this
1:29:22
idea of of you know what she’s not afraid she goes and it reminded me of you remember in in in 2000 in May 2000
1:29:29
when when the South lebano was liberated and everybody went down and started throwing those rocks across and you know
1:29:35
here we are sitting right there throwing rocks across and the Israeli soldiers were sitting there in their bunkers you
1:29:42
know far away in their bunkers and just like you know like this and scared and and cowering behind and you just had
1:29:48
like kids and families and women and children just sitting there complet completely out there throwing stones I mean there was a the sense of of you
1:29:55
know uh it’s different ideas of power I mean and I I I love that she was able to
1:30:01
kind of parse them out even while she was talking about this incredible Nuance of and the testimonies and and I finally
1:30:08
I love the idea that she talked about love as the antidote to Zionism and the the antidote to this violence and to the
1:30:14
genocide and you know I if you remembera who also was on an earlier episode of
1:30:20
our podcast also again with all the testimony and all the the the incredibly
1:30:26
moving depressing but moving uh uh and kind of stories that he was talking
1:30:31
about and the solidarity that was being shown outside he also ended up by saying there’s the power of love and that is
1:30:37
the antidote and so I thought you know this is really incredible you know and the importance of what you called about
1:30:43
the the effective solidarity from outside being very important to kind of sustain the work in the face of this
1:30:50
inhumanity uh and and the face of of the kind of international political ineptitude nothing going on silence you
1:30:57
know although it’s not really silence the international court of justice you know has moved the South Africans have
1:31:03
moved the namibians have moved uh you know a lot a lot of people have moved it’s just the key States the Europeans
1:31:09
the Americans or at least some Europeans the Americans and uh Arab states so s on
1:31:16
that on that note I mean maybe you want to jump in here in the WAP and and speak to this point that k just raised because
1:31:22
when I was trying to conclude you interrupted me that’s okay uh we’re brothers and you said that the world is
1:31:30
not abandoning the Palestinians that the world has spoken up so do you want to say something about that I I’m thinking about I mean Kim said also obviously the
1:31:37
when we all saw the South African one of the most moving moving things about the South African presentation at the UN was
1:31:43
it it was like these are this not us talking like they the South Africans that incredible panoply of people that
1:31:50
they had you know black and white men and women from different backgrounds and so on making these incredibly powerful
1:31:57
presentations it was like suddenly the world is we we we’re we’re hearing in a
1:32:02
way the representatives of the rest of the world telling our story for us which is very very powerful and very moving
1:32:08
for the same reason Aaron Bushnell who set himself on fire and protest outside the the Zionist Embassy in Washington
1:32:15
that you know incredibly powerful so the world is listening it is these this collection of Western racist states that
1:32:23
are that are and and as you’re saying both the the Arab states sitting on their but it’s also it’s yes it’s also
1:32:29
but it’s also I mean we we should do an episode on this one day it’s not just Western it’s also the the elite sort of
1:32:35
classes of of the aaric intellectuals isn’t it don’t you think that I mean that’s it’s not just the state it’s like
1:32:41
there are a lot of people who could be saying a lot more and haven’t said anything but they never do that’s true I
1:32:47
mean they never do like the you know the major some of the major intellectuals in this country don’t they don’t say anything about anything that matters I
1:32:52
guess they talk to themselves about themselves but but but going back also
1:32:57
to what NAD was saying the other thing I was going to say briefly is just that you know her what she was saying reminds
1:33:02
us of the scale in which the Israeli regime of death and destruction operates
1:33:08
which is this it goes from the very very small and fine grain to the absolutely you know apocalyptic and everything in
1:33:14
between and there’s this there is something to their mentality that is much much closer to the 17th century in
1:33:22
all kinds of ways then to the 21st this this state project is out of it’s out of
1:33:27
place in the 21st century there’s also I mean there is a point that is it’s not it’s out of place you’re absolutely
1:33:33
right I mean there’s an anacronismo colonialism in the 21st
1:33:40
century in this form is totally anachronistic the the discourse of the Israelis the fact that they themselves
1:33:46
don’t even hide when they say these things they say things openly the the torture of Palestinian that’s open it’s
1:33:52
all videotaped it’s all it’s all recorded not vide proud proudly not
1:33:57
proudly the soldiers like know parading in women’s underwear the stripping of men naked and the vast majority of in
1:34:04
all the polls vast majority of of Jewish Israel is supporting and supporting supporting this kind it’s not just a
1:34:10
fringe group there’s enough fringe groups but this yeah this is all this anachronism of this kind of state that
1:34:15
that is built on on Colonial violence um and Western lar that’s the other thing
1:34:21
yeah but fairness to Western colonialists I mean in a way like when the British and the French and and the
1:34:26
Americans did did their thing their awful awful criminality and so forth they didn’t have somebody else helping
1:34:32
them do it they did it themselves yeah but the thing the unique thing about the Israeli state is that they they could
1:34:37
they’re endlessly coddled by the West yeah they couldn’t survive for five minutes without Western support and but
1:34:43
and yet they keep running rough shot over over America telling America to go you know to I I have to be polite in
1:34:49
this program so I won’t say what they say about America it’s just it’s sort of like it’s mockery in a way there’s
1:34:54
there’s a it’s just a weird contortionist I don’t know how to put it but some weird amalgamation of
1:35:02
the 17th century and the and the 12th century and the No but but there’s also but but there’s also there’s also this
1:35:08
point about the anachronism of the of the colonial project in Palestine in the 21st century and what we’re seeing in
1:35:14
terms of genocide on the other hand unlike previous gen genocides and unlike previous settler Colonial formations the
1:35:21
idea of of constantly insisting that they are the victims yeah that’s true this is this is never this is what I’ve
1:35:27
never this is what I’ve never been able to a py this business of they’re always the victims the victims the victims the
1:35:33
victims no matter how much they document their own brutality and I’m always reminded of Benny Morris the the the the
1:35:39
racist Israeli historian who said yes we’re oppressing the Palestinians but we are the greater potential victim here I
1:35:45
mean to me that that line that’s where btim Benny moris it’s just astonishing anyway Karim uh thank you again I know
1:35:52
you’re in beiut and uh you’re you’re as always um um with us from a distance and
1:35:58
S thank you thank you um and uh we’ll we’ll see you all soon and we’ll we’ll
1:36:04
be getting to the patreon Ken do you want to say just a word about the patreon no just to say firstly please send in any question not you guys but
1:36:10
anybody listening anybody remaining who’s listening please send in questions and uh so that we can kind of compile
1:36:17
the questions and and maybe do a session on that as part of the patreon and uh and to be sure to please sign up for
1:36:23
patreon through the website I think it’s just uh patreon.com Makdisi Street and um
1:36:33
otherwise it’s in the link below it’s in the link in the link below as well thank you guys thank you everyone
1:36:39
thanks guys bye bye

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האוניברסיטה העברית דוחה בשאט נפש את כלל אמירותיה המעוותות של פרופ קבורקיאן. האוניברסיטה העברית גאה בהיותה מוסד ישראלי, ציבורי וציוני. כבעבר, ראשי האוניברסיטה חוזרים על קריאתם לפרופ' קבורקיאן למצוא לעצמה בית אקדמי אחר תואם את עמדותיה

בשלב זה, האוניברסיטה החליטה להשעותה מהוראה על…

— האוניברסיטה העברית בירושלים (@HebrewU_heb) March 12, 2024

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https://www.mako.co.il/news-education/2024_q1/Article-6ad1183a0dc3e81027.htm

90 מרצים להנהלת האוניברסיטה העברית: בטלו את השעיית המרצה

בצעד יוצא דופן הודיעו באוניברסיטה העברית על השעייתה מהוראה של פרופ’ נדירה שלהוב-קיבורקיאן, שהאשימה בראיון כי “ישראל תשתמש בכל טיעון כדי להמשיך להרוג” • בעקבות ההחלטה שיגרו שורת מרצים – בהווה ובעבר, מכתב לראשי האוניברסיטה וקראו לביטולה: “אין בדברים משום עבירה על החוק” • המחאה בקמפוס והמכתב המלא

יעל אודם|N12| פורסם 14/03/24 15:36 

90 חברי סגל באוניברסיטה העברית בירושלים, רובם חברי סגל לשעבר, כתבו אתמול (רביעי) מכתב חסר תקדים בעקבות השעייתה של פרופ’ נדירה שלהוב-קיבורקיאן. במכתב קראו המרצים לביטולה של ההחלטה, שלטענתם נעשתה בניגוד להוראות תקנון המשמעת. החתומים על המכתב הדגישו את “הסתייגותם הנחרצת” מהתבטאויותיה וציינו בו בעת כי “אין בהן משום עבירה על החוק”. במקביל, היום התרחשה מהומה בקמפוס הר הצופים בעקבות הפגנות בעד ונגד המרצה.

מכתבם של המרצים נפתח בדחייה ברורה של אמירותיה של שלהוב-קיבורקיאן: “אנחנו מסתייגים נחרצות מדבריה של פרופ’ שלהוב-קיבורקיאן בראיון שפורסם באינטרנט, וחלקנו אף היה שותף למכתב גינוי לדברים דומים שלה שנכללו בעצומה שיזמה, סמוך לתחילת המלחמה. בצד זאת, סברנו אז ואנו סבורים כיום, שהתגובה היחידה המותרת לדברים היא גינוי שלהם והסתייגות מהם”. 

“החלטת ההנהלה והדיקנים לוקה בשלושה עניינים עיקריים: ראשית, מבחינת הסמכות, החלטה על השעיה, קבועה או זמנית, של חבר/ת סגל, אפשרית רק לאחר הגשת תלונה לוועדת משמעת והיא מסורה לראש בית-הדין למשמעת סגל או לנציבת מניעת הטרדה מינית ואף זאת רק לאחר שניתנה לחבר/ת הסגל זכות טיעון ותוך כיבוד זוכות/ה לערעור. שנית, מבחינה מהותית, אנו סבורים שאין בדברים שאמרה פרופ’ שלהוב-קיבורקיאן בראיון משום הסתה לאלימות, לטרור או לגזענות, ואין נשקפת מהם כל סכנה”, נכתב. “שלישית, התגובה של הנהלת האוניברסיטה צפויה לפגוע באופן חמור במעמדה של האוניברסיטה ועלולה להעצים את הקריאות לחרם אקדמי בין-לאומי עליה”. מחאת סטודנטים נגד השעייתה של פרופ’ נדירה שילהוב-קיבורקיאן

במהלך היום סטודנטים שמתנגדים להשעיה הפגינו ברחבת הפורום, מקום מרכזי בקמפוס הר הצופים, במחאה על ההשתקה לדבריהם, כשעל פיהם נייר דבק שחור. בהנהלת האוניברסיטה אמרו כי הניחו שהמלחמה תביא למצב נפיץ בקמפוס אך לא האמינו שהמתיחות תהיה מורגשת כך.

בסרטון שהועלה לרשתות והוביל להשעייתה של פרופ’ שלהוב-קיבורקיאן, היא אמרה בין היתר כי “ישראל תשתמש בכל טיעון כדי להמשיך להרוג. זו מכונת השמדה. פושעים צריכים לשלם על המעשים שלהם. אנחנו הפסקנו להאמין להם (לישראל), אני מקווה ששאר העולם יפסיק להאמין להם”. בעקבות הדברים הודיעה האוניברסיטה בצעד תקדימי על השעייתה מהוראה “על מנת לשמור על אקלים בטוח בקמפוס לטובת הסטודנטים”.===================================================================================

https://www.makorrishon.co.il/news/746195

90 אנשי סגל תומכים במרצה שהאשימה את ישראל ברצח עם

פרופ’ נאדירה שלהוב-קיבורקיאן הושעתה מאוניברסיטה העברית בעקבות התבטאויות מקוממות, כולל האשמת צה”ל ברצח עם. אנשי הסגל: “אין בדבריה הסתה או גזענות”

מאת  ישי אלמקייס

ג׳ באדר ב׳ ה׳תשפ״ד (13/03/2024 19:44)

90 אנשי סגל וחוקרים מהאוניברסיטה העברית שלחו היום (ד’) מכתב לראשי המוסד האקדמי, בו קראו להם לבטל את השעייתה מהוראה של פרופ’ נאדירה שלהוב-קיבורקיאן, בעקבות הדברים החמורים שאמרה, בהם טענות נגד הציונות, ייחוס רצח עם לישראל והטלת ספק במעשי האונס שביצעו מחבלי חמאס ב-7 באוקטובר.

מדובר ביוזמה של פרופ’ ברק מדינה, רקטור האוניברסיטה העברית לשעבר. במכתב שנשלח לפרופ’ אשר כהן נשיא האוניברסיטה, הרקטור הנוכחי פרופ’ תמיר שפר ודיקני הפקולטה למשפטים ועבודה סוציאלית בהם לימדה שלהוב-קיבורקיאן, נאמר כי למרות שהם מגנים את דבריה, “סברנו אז ואנו סוברים כיום, שהתגובה היחידה המותרת לדברים היא גינוי שלהם והסתייגות מהם”.

לדבריהם, ההחלטה להשעות את הפרופ’ שהכחישה את מעשי הזוועה היא בעייתית בשלושה היבטים. הראשונה היא ש”אין להנהלת האוניברסיטה, ובכלל זה הנשיא והרקטור או הדיקנים, סמכות להטיל סנקציות על חברי סגל, ובכלל זה להורות על השעיה זמנית של חברת סגל”, זה כפי שמצוין בתקנון.

“שנית, מבחינה מהותית, אנו סבורים שאין בדברים שאמרה פרופ’ שלהוב-קיבורקיאן בראיון משום הסתה לאלימות, לטרור או לגזענות, ואין נשקפת מהם כל סכנה”, אמרו כשלטענתם, הנהלת האוניברסיטה עצמה פרסמה בחודש נובמבר האחרון קווים מנחים לפרסום דעות, ובהם ציינה כי “האוניברסיטה, כמוסד להשכלה גבוהה המעודד שיח וביקורתיות, נוטה שלא להגביל את חופש הביטוי של חברות וחברי הקהילה”. בהתאם לכך נקבע שם כי יש להימנע רק מסוגים מסוימים של התבטאויות “כמו הבעת אהדה למעשה הטבח הנורא” והסתה לגזענות.

לעומת זאת הובהר שם כי “מותר להביע הזדהות עם סבלם של אנשים חפים מפשע שהם או יקיריהם נפגעו, ישראלים, פלסטינים או אחרים ומותר לקרוא לממשלה לצמצם ככל האפשר פגיעה בחיי אדם חפים מפשע”. לפי אותם חותמים על המכתב, “דבריה של פרופ’ שלהוב-קיבורקיאן, שמהם אנו מסתייגים נחרצות, אינם חורגים מן המותר לפי הקווים המנחים הללו ולפי עקרונות בסיסיים של חופש אקדמי וחופש ביטוי בכלל”.

“העמדות של פרופ’ שלהוב-קיבורקיאן מקוממות, אך אין בהן משום עבירה על החוק, ואין בהן תמיכה, מפורשת או משתמעת, באלימות או במעשים המזוויעים של החמאס”, הוסיפו והדגישו כי, “בהתאם לכך, אנו סבורים שאין גם יסוד לקביעה של הנשיא והרקטור, במכתבם אל ח”כ השכל, כי ההשעיה נחוצה ‘על מנת לשמור על אקלים בטוח בקמפוס לטובת הסטודנטיות והסטודנטים’. דבריה של פרופ’ שלהוב-קיבורקיאן לא נאמרו בשיעור או בקמפוס, ובראיון היא כלל אינה מוצגת כחברת סגל באוניברסיטה העברית, ודבריה לא כוונו אל סטודנטיות ואל סטודנטים באוניברסיטה. לא ידוע על תקרית כלשהי שארעה במהלך הסמסטר כולו, על מקרה אחד שבו סטודנטית או סטודנט כלשהם חשו מאוימים על-ידי פרופ’ שלהוב-קיבורקיאן או לא בטוחים”.

אותם אנשי סגל של האוניברסיטה העברית טענו כי המונח “אקלים בטוח בקמפוס”, משמעותו גם כיבוד חופש הביטוי של חברי הסגל עצמם, והכרה בכך שיש בהם מגוון עמדות בנושאים הקשורים למלחמה. “שלישית, התגובה של הנהלת האוניברסיטה צפויה לפגוע באופן חמור במעמדה של האוניברסיטה. התגובה הזו לדבריה של פרופ’ שלהוב-קיבורקיאן עלולה להעצים את הקריאות לחרם אקדמי בינלאומי על האוניברסיטה ולפגוע באקדמיה הישראלית בכללה. הנזק שעלול להיגרם לאוניברסיטה העברית ולאקדמיה הישראלית בשל הצעד הזה עולה לאין שיעור על תועלת אפשרית בשמירה על ‘אקלים בטוח’ בקמפוס”, ציינו וסיכמו כי, “לאור כל זאת, אנו קוראות וקוראים להנהלת האוניברסיטה לבטל את ההחלטה, שניתנה בחוסר סמכות, על השעייתה של פרופ’ שלהוב-קיבורקיאן מהוראה. על ההנהלה לפעול בהתאם להוראות תקנון המשמעת, אם היא סבורה שיש חשד שנעברה כאן עבירת משמעת כלשהי”.

רשימת אנשי הסגל שחתמו על המכתב


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אקדמיה לשוויון Academia for Equality أكاديميون من أجلאקדמיה לשוויון Academia for Equality أكاديميون من أجل

 ألمساواة

13 March at 17:04A translation of Professor Yuri Pines’s letter to the leaders of Hebrew U following their decision to suspend Professor Nadera Shalhoub-Kevorkian.Asher and Tamir Shalom, I was amazed to discover – unfortunately, indirectly and without a statement on your part – the despicable content of the letter you wrote to MK Sharren Haskel. I never thought that the Hebrew University was a Zionist institution: I saw it as an academic institution where Zionists, non-Zionists, and also people who oppose Zionism like myself can work. I also thought that the Hebrew University is led by people who are wise enough to understand that the issue of whether Israel is committing genocide in Gaza or just “normal” war crimes belongs precisely to the area where lecturers and students can express themselves freely. I have never heard of a lecturer being suspended, whatever his/her political positions may be. And I never knew there was a political position test that we are obliged to take in order teach in the university.It seems that I was wrong in my assessments of the university and its leaders, and I must take responsibility. I hereby announce that from now on I refuse to do any work at the university that involves its representation in Israel or abroad. Therefore, I am ceasing my work as director of the Confucius Institute and will not accept any position in the future. I will inform my close colleagues of this decision. You have really disgraced the institution. I have never felt so betrayed and humiliated. Yuritranslated by

Neve Gordon